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Old 16th June 2013, 02:51 PM   #61
JLH is offline JLH  United States
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Originally Posted by bear View Post
Art,

I have never heard the Synergy, and have only had cursory contact with the Unity horns... but unless there is something very different between the breakovers in the Synergy vs the MantaRay I'd expect a problem. There may well be some very important differences. I don't know.

As far as "pretty" designs, pretty has nothing to do with the measurements. I expect you followed JMMC's thread, so you've see what I and everyone else has?

Also I think Geddes has commented on the effects of a change in flare rate between the drivers throat where it exits to the expansion of the horn causing issues. I'm unclear how or if the Synergy or any conical expansion deal with this potential problem.
The frequency of the horn loaded woofers (not talking about the mids) is limited to a frequency where the wavelength is less than the circumference of the conical horn's mouth. This all but eliminates any mouth diffraction because the mouth is acoustically large compared to the wavelength that it is passing. The frequencies below this frequency are handled by the bass reflex ports which are too far forward in the horn to be horn loaded. Lastly, Danley puts an extra wide angle ending mouth flare at the end of the horn for good measure.
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Old 17th June 2013, 12:29 AM   #62
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If there is an issue with diffraction, it comes higher in frequency than the woofers... I was more focused on the effects upon the upper mids and highs.

It is the sort of "extra wide angle ending mouth flare at the end of the horn" that is of concern to me, if the upper frequencies are "riding" along the horn walls, anything like that will look like a discontinuity.
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Old 17th June 2013, 12:51 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by bear View Post
If there is an issue with diffraction, it comes higher in frequency than the woofers... I was more focused on the effects upon the upper mids and highs.

It is the sort of "extra wide angle ending mouth flare at the end of the horn" that is of concern to me, if the upper frequencies are "riding" along the horn walls, anything like that will look like a discontinuity.
Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.

I'm listening to the Geddes Summas while I type this post, and I've built a bunch of Unity horns. From the perspective of the work that Geddes does, the designs diverge in a few ways:

1) Most listeners focus a lot of attention at the throat of the horn, but I'd say the main difference is the cabinet actually. IMHO the main reason that my Summas 'disappear' is that the cabinet doesn't have a sharp edge *anywhere.* Even the back of the cabinet is designed to reduce diffraction, and this makes a difference. Compare this to the Lambda Unity horns with their rough edges.

Click the image to open in full size.
2) The curve at the throat isn't perfect, but it's not terrible either. If you look at the polar curves of the SH-50* you'll see their as good as it gets, and I'd guess that they wouldn't be that good if there were substantial issues at the throat. Just my opinion of course.

3) IMHO, higher order modes will be generated in the throat because the midrange energy doesn't go strictly down the axis of the horn; in fact the midranges aren't even *mounted* on the center of the horn, so higher order modes are a given. Is that audible? I don't know; I haven't listened to both designs enough to offer a valid opinion. When I've listened to the designs on the same day, I've found that the Unity wins in the articulation department, and the Summa wins in the imaging department. But the Summa's imaging is partially due to the cabinet, and the Unity cabinet could easily adopt the Summa's shape.


* download the CLF viewer and the CLF files from danleysoundlab.com to see the polar plots
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Old 17th June 2013, 04:06 PM   #64
JLH is offline JLH  United States
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Originally Posted by bear View Post
If there is an issue with diffraction, it comes higher in frequency than the woofers... I was more focused on the effects upon the upper mids and highs.

It is the sort of "extra wide angle ending mouth flare at the end of the horn" that is of concern to me, if the upper frequencies are "riding" along the horn walls, anything like that will look like a discontinuity.
The high frequencies do not "ride" along the horn walls. Those wavelengths are too acoustically small to even interact with the horn wall at the mouth.
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Old 17th June 2013, 04:54 PM   #65
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In Toole's book, he explicitly states that diffraction looks bad on paper, but does not sound as bad. In fact, any type of comb filtering is not perceived the way it looks on the measurements. Floor bounce, for example, produces a comb filtered response, but we don't hear it that way.

Speakers disappearing is primarily down to good phase overlap through the crossover, i.e., proper crossover design, and small center to center spacing of the drivers. You can put two identical speakers side by side, one with curved sides and another with sharp edges, and I bet you won't hear the difference in a blind test. That's just my opinion.

All the reports I have heard about the Synergies are unanimous in their opinion that the stereo imaging is far superior to conventional directional speakers. It's down to the smooth crossover and near-point source behavior of the speaker.
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Old 17th June 2013, 11:09 PM   #66
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Speakers disappearing is primarily down to good phase overlap through the crossover, i.e., proper crossover design, and small center to center spacing of the drivers.
Yesterday I whipped up a crossover for a new build in a couple of hours...so that I could listen to music while I did it properly The speakers still disappear. The vertical spacing isn't too small either.
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Old 19th June 2013, 12:56 AM   #67
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The high frequencies do not "ride" along the horn walls. Those wavelengths are too acoustically small to even interact with the horn wall at the mouth.
Imo, that would depend on a few things.

What frequencies?

Is there any diffraction or other diffraction causing discontinuity at or near the throat?

Why do the JMMC horns (even ones like 200Hz horns) show a smoother response with very large "lips" at high frequencies if there is no effect at the mouth?

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Old 19th June 2013, 03:50 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by ra7 View Post
In Toole's book, he explicitly states that diffraction looks bad on paper, but does not sound as bad. In fact, any type of comb filtering is not perceived the way it looks on the measurements. Floor bounce, for example, produces a comb filtered response, but we don't hear it that way.
All of which is part of the field information we use for location and "sense of the space". It may not sound bad but it impacts on the sense of realism (which is why everyone recommends damping floor bounce with a carpet)

The beyond the ariel thread has a number of discussions on the role of comb filtering in creating "horn honk".

BTW There's a nice experiment with a magazine and a towel on "horn honk" somewhere on the interweb
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Old 19th June 2013, 05:56 AM   #69
ra7 is offline ra7  United States
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Originally Posted by AllenB View Post
Yesterday I whipped up a crossover for a new build in a couple of hours...so that I could listen to music while I did it properly The speakers still disappear. The vertical spacing isn't too small either.
Maybe your crossover isn't that bad after all.



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Originally Posted by thoglette View Post
All of which is part of the field information we use for location and "sense of the space". It may not sound bad but it impacts on the sense of realism (which is why everyone recommends damping floor bounce with a carpet)

The beyond the ariel thread has a number of discussions on the role of comb filtering in creating "horn honk".

BTW There's a nice experiment with a magazine and a towel on "horn honk" somewhere on the interweb

How do you explain the disappearance of small speakers, such as the Harbeth monitors, or take Jeff B's Continuums for that matter. There is no rounding of the edges. Besides, there have been many counter-studies that showed that the radius that is typically achieved, like the one on the Summas, has little to no impact on smoothing the abrupt change at the edge.

Now, if we are talking about the LeCleach roundover, yes, that will have a significant impact. Especially on a horn, where it will prevent mouth reflections. That is almost a complete 180 deg roundover that is perfectly... round. That is not to be confused with the puny roundover on a flat baffle.

We are much more sensitive to errors in the crossover, bumpy response, and drivers calling attention to themselves, than we are to diffraction from baffle edges.

Last edited by ra7; 19th June 2013 at 06:00 AM.
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Old 19th June 2013, 08:18 AM   #70
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Besides, there have been many counter-studies that showed that the radius that is typically achieved, like the one on the Summas, has little to no impact on smoothing the abrupt change at the edge.
Can you provide a lead on these?

I concur with your comments on small monitors, I've always presumed some mechanism was keeping Q down and htis combined with the short distance made it less noticable.

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We are much more sensitive to errors in the crossover, bumpy response, and drivers calling attention to themselves, than we are to diffraction from baffle edges.
Agreed. Horn Honk is the extreme form of "the diffraction problem" which is usually audible.

I've not heard the Danley horn but all reports indicate that it does not suffer from this at all.

Last edited by thoglette; 19th June 2013 at 08:20 AM.
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