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Old 6th June 2013, 08:09 PM   #31
Zero D is offline Zero D  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Danley

this might be hard to believe, but that hf driver is already one of the top couple most efficient drivers available at any price.
Yeah some Really are top $

Quote:
It is the wide dispersion, maintained up high, which forces it down.
Ahh, OK

Quote:
On a horn which narrowed up high, that driver can deliver over 110dB on axis sensitivity.
I know of HF drivers that achieve quite a lot more output. You "may" have already evaluated them ? But if you'ld like me to pass on the info to you, on the off chance the've slipped past you, just holla

Quote:
Keep in mind, on a CD horn, it is usually the hf drivers sensitivity in the top octave that limits the overall sensitivity.
Not just CD horns either !

*

Re SH-50 overly bright

Not straight out da box, looking @ the fr plots etc. It MUST have been bad EQ settings etc. Unfortunately, operators "can" give good products a Bad name

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pano

The SPL was very high, but didn't seem it. The boxes and drivers were so well behaved that they just didn't sound loud.

Obviously a prodigious amount of acoustic energy in the room, but no distress or noise from the subs. Impressive.
That's what you get with good design The opposite of "sometimes" being "maybe" initially impressed with a system and/or speakers. But then it doesn't take long for fatigue etc to set in ! I know which i always prefer
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Old 6th June 2013, 08:45 PM   #32
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Hi Guys
GM, you heard what you heard but I can say what is in the rack are a couple multi-channel power amps, a crossover, a matrix switcher and DVD player, nothing special at all. It has been the norm (and usually they mention it) to demo without any eq and using a normal crossover between the subs and higher boxes. Ideally, we would have a proper Synergy horn alignment for each combination but with 24 full range and 18 subwoofers it is impractical (taking all the measurements needed to figure them out).
To the first order, if all the loudspeakers were technically perfect, they would sound exactly the same. Here though some of the speakers at work are for down fill or other fill applications where bass is undesirable or for on stage monitors where brightness is desirable.
Also too, the Synergy horn is a design approach that ideally ends with what looks like one driver, not the model. If I were making one for the home, it would be more like an SH-50 / SM-60F a full range speaker but switching to a sealed LF alignment so I could more easily make a Synergy crossover into a subwoofer below the horn.
I will be back in Gainesville after the trade show, since you’re a horn guy and you’re not that far away as I recall, if you want, I will see if I can talk them into loaning a pair of 50’s or 60’s to you to try. I would be curious what you thought in a room and system you knew intimately. If favorable, maybe that would help getting more interest in this area.
Got to run
Tom
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Old 6th June 2013, 09:39 PM   #33
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well here is a question, two actually.

Tom, could you PM me or post the relevant US patent numbers?

Second question, it seems that this is similar to the earlier Unity horn, but with the bass drivers added and a different angle horn? Wondering what the specific differences are?

Third out of two questions, why would this horn be an improvement for home use over the Unity design(s)?
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Old 7th June 2013, 02:15 PM   #34
Zero D is offline Zero D  United Kingdom
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Default Re SH-50 overly bright

I re-read GM's comments & realised that it was in fact a DSL demo, & NOT an outside contractor etc demo !

Therefore i can't see how/why it should have been overly bright. Unless they had set it up envisaging a Large amount of people would be attending, altering the room response, & had HF compensated ahead of time, no pun intended for a "possible" correction ?

Even so, i would have expected the EQ settings to be switchable etc @ the appropriate juncture.
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Old 7th June 2013, 04:04 PM   #35
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Hi Guys
I am packing to leave for the trade show so this has to be short.
Bear, I can’t get to your questions until I get back but the difference between the two was that I was never able to get the “one driver” behavior I was trying to reach. In the Unity horn, the sources combined so for as the radiation pattern (no lobes or nulls or change in pattern) but I couldn’t cancel out the entire crossover phase shift.

Zero, they generally DO NOT apply any eq or do anything special for in house demos (and they normally say that during the demo).
The reason is that most loudspeakers require a great deal of tuning / processing to make sound their best especially in large spaces.
They also do not do in house demos that often, it is MUCH better to go on site and demo side by side with the other options.

If you read through some of the installation artless, one sees they frequently mention how little tuning or eq was required.
Here is an old one I found with google.

Prosound Network: Danley Sound Labs SH-50 Loudspeaker

A Pair of Danley Jericho Horns Herald a New Speaker Model for Church Audio - Lighting&Sound America Online - News

maybe more relevant, a hifi horn guy that had some;

RE: Danley Sound Labs - endust4237 - High Efficiency Speaker Asylum

The reason why Flat is a good place to start in large scale sound;

Calculation method of absorption of sound by atmosphere air damping dissipation absorbtion - Attenuation of sound during propagation outdoors outdoor - sengpielaudio Sengpiel Berlin
Best,
Tom
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Old 7th June 2013, 04:27 PM   #36
GM is offline GM  United States
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Tom, I sent you a PM re Gainesville visit.

GM
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Old 8th June 2013, 04:03 PM   #37
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A couple of observations:

1) One little appreciated feature of synergy horns is that their listening distance is very close. Due to this, they can work in very small rooms. This is a feature which makes them particularly attractive for home theater and car audio. For instance, if you're using a horn like the econowave, you need to sit about ten feet away from the speaker to escape the nearfield, due to the large CTC spacing. In a Synergy horn the CTC spacing is about one quarter as large, and due to that you can listen at a very short range. A very nice feature if you happen to have limited space.

2) Mini DSP and inexpensive digital amps have allowed the DIYer to make a Synergy horn for far less cost and complexity than was possible five or ten years ago. The passive xover on my second Unity horn probably took a week or two to get 'in the ballpark'. MiniDSP simplifies this in a huge way.
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Old 8th June 2013, 04:23 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pano View Post
I heard the entire DSL line at Infocomm last year, and they all seemed a little bright at medium distances. OK, the subs didn't.* I figured that was an artifact of them being meant for long throw.

When I heard the SH50 again some months later and in another state, it didn't sound as bright. Curiously it was in a smaller space that time. The SH50 was well balanced in that smaller venue. Mostly it was used for live microphone and people speaking, but some music samples were also played. It seemed very well balanced there. I don't have an explanation for the difference.

*The sub demo was funny. The SPL was very high, but didn't seem it. The boxes and drivers were so well behaved that they just didn't sound loud. But everything else in the ballroom was buzzing, rattling and singing like mad. Obviously a prodigious amount of acoustic energy in the room, but no distress or noise from the subs. Impressive.
I've built a bunch of Unity horns, heard some of the real ones, and bought Gedlee Summas for myself. Some observations:

1) your observation about being able to listen at very high SPLs without things "seeming" loud are consistent with my experience. For instance, when I'm running my Summas I basically have to shout to make myself heard. But they don't SEEM loud.
2) the main difference I notice between my Summas and my Unity projects is articulation, and an ability to extract details out of a song. IMHO, this has a lot to do with the midrange phase response. For instance, if my Summas play a song where the vocalists voice sits at the xover, then their voice will radiate from two points in space that are fifteen inches apart. (Because the woofer and the tweeter are spaced 15" apart). When I listen to the same song on my Unities, the articulation is improved, and I believe that's because the midrange and tweeter are much much closer. Unfortunately, there's no free lunch, and my Summas do some other things that my Unity projects can't.

Sometimes I've wondered if I could reach a compromise between the two speakers by reducing the CTC spacing by simply using a smaller waveguide. This would 'push' that transition from driver to driver up to 1500 or even 2khz, where it may be less audible. Then again, it might actually sound worse, since we're more sensitive to 2khz than 1khz.
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Old 9th June 2013, 03:49 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
Sometimes I've wondered if I could reach a compromise between the two speakers by reducing the CTC spacing by simply using a smaller waveguide. This would 'push' that transition from driver to driver up to 1500 or even 2khz, where it may be less audible. Then again, it might actually sound worse, since we're more sensitive to 2khz than 1khz.
You can just use an asymmetrical waveguide. A good econowave style design can do far better than the 10' distance you mentioned. Not that I'm calling it a synergy substitute by any means. A smaller woofer helps, but then you've got trouble with the waveguide depth. A smaller waveguide could work but the large woofers can't reach it gracefully. Smaller woofer AND waveguide works, but then suddenly you're going 3-way, like those JBL monitors.

Last edited by dumptruck; 9th June 2013 at 03:52 AM.
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Old 9th June 2013, 05:23 AM   #40
fas42 is offline fas42  Australia
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Interesting that people often throw dirt at horns for being 'bright', when all that's really happening is that the distortion artifacts of the preceding chain are being cleanly reproduced. The louder the system is capable of going, the more subjectively obvious are these deficiencies - which a lot of people seem to "solve" by dulling the HF response in various ways.

The real solution is to sort out the problems further back in the system, which will then allow SPLs to be at ear shredding levels without being subjectively disturbing ...
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