Hi all,
I recently bought some old man's DIY high-end speaker build from his son who knew nothing about hifi. Unfortunately the father is now living in a home, suffering from dementia..
Anyway, to cut to the point:
When I got them home I discovered that the guy had obviously gone active as the space where the crossover would have sat was empty and the wires (nice load of Kimber Kable) going straight through..
The build uses Esotar T330D + M560D + Volt B2500.1 in a transmission line (hence why I bought them !)
I have some paperwork but mostly just data sheets from the above BUT also a NetCalc printout with x-over diagrams and values - I guess these are from Wilmslow Audio in UK. However, I can't be sure that these are absolutely correct or if they take into account the transmission line part..
As sealed units, is the T330 crossover standard and also most of the M560D crossover quite standard? Obviously the lower crossover point would vary dependant on the bass driver..
There are a couple of hand written notes on the paper stating that actual x-over points were 1100 and 2000.
Any help with this will be greatly appreciated as I just want to hear them!
P.S. is there an area on the forum where I can post up scans of the '94 Volt driver datasheets for people?
Here are the scans and also a brief pic of the speakers themselves as attachments:
I recently bought some old man's DIY high-end speaker build from his son who knew nothing about hifi. Unfortunately the father is now living in a home, suffering from dementia..
Anyway, to cut to the point:
When I got them home I discovered that the guy had obviously gone active as the space where the crossover would have sat was empty and the wires (nice load of Kimber Kable) going straight through..
The build uses Esotar T330D + M560D + Volt B2500.1 in a transmission line (hence why I bought them !)
I have some paperwork but mostly just data sheets from the above BUT also a NetCalc printout with x-over diagrams and values - I guess these are from Wilmslow Audio in UK. However, I can't be sure that these are absolutely correct or if they take into account the transmission line part..
As sealed units, is the T330 crossover standard and also most of the M560D crossover quite standard? Obviously the lower crossover point would vary dependant on the bass driver..
There are a couple of hand written notes on the paper stating that actual x-over points were 1100 and 2000.
Any help with this will be greatly appreciated as I just want to hear them!
P.S. is there an area on the forum where I can post up scans of the '94 Volt driver datasheets for people?
Here are the scans and also a brief pic of the speakers themselves as attachments:
Attachments
Close up the finish is a bit wobbly - like the outer skin is a plaster that's been hand applied - but the basic design is nice, especially with the lack of baffle.
I agree with you about the mid/tweeter placement too.
Once I've got them up and running and lived with them for a while, I'll think about a new cabinet.
I agree with you about the mid/tweeter placement too.
Once I've got them up and running and lived with them for a while, I'll think about a new cabinet.
It has made no sense to me to use anything but multi-amps for the last 50 years. Go to your local second-hand store and get some amps. Old amps are much cleaner than new drivers, so the match makes sense. No way to make crossovers that are accurate, stable, low impedance, economic, and/or crafted right except through much more trouble than just using electronic crossing over.
Ben
Ben
Then I'd have to re-assess my whole enjoyment of hifi.
Part of that is classic gear and I feel my Nestorovic amps are something special so far. I could try to find 2 more pairs but that's probably a £5K outlay at dealer prices (not what I paid for mine - but I'd have to wait many years for non-dealer sales).
I'd like to hear the speakers sooner rather than later and x-overs will be the cheaper option compared to anything else that will satisfy the non-sonic part of my interest in the hobby. Besides which, there are no local second-hand stores in London who sell decent hifi. Too many savvy people who know values on ebay and safety laws mean electrical goods are too much hassle to test for electrical safety for cheap secondhand stores to sell.
I almost bought some Dayton Wright speakers but couldn't stump up the cash in time.. the ones with the big transformer box thing (model had an "8" in it). How are they?
Part of that is classic gear and I feel my Nestorovic amps are something special so far. I could try to find 2 more pairs but that's probably a £5K outlay at dealer prices (not what I paid for mine - but I'd have to wait many years for non-dealer sales).
I'd like to hear the speakers sooner rather than later and x-overs will be the cheaper option compared to anything else that will satisfy the non-sonic part of my interest in the hobby. Besides which, there are no local second-hand stores in London who sell decent hifi. Too many savvy people who know values on ebay and safety laws mean electrical goods are too much hassle to test for electrical safety for cheap secondhand stores to sell.
I almost bought some Dayton Wright speakers but couldn't stump up the cash in time.. the ones with the big transformer box thing (model had an "8" in it). How are they?
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The impression that they had to be regularly re-filled with the gas also made me hesitate - perhaps with more confidence or knowledge about them I'd have got the money together quicker.
Still, so many speakers to try and so little time - not buying one pair means you're free to try another.
Back to the speakers here, yes I'm definately someone who likes the nicely made gear too and not into getting the cheapest thing to sound the best. I've always thought that's a great philosophy and a great challenge for another day but ultimately, for me personally, unsatisfying in terms of enjoying build quality, industrial design and aesthetics. Maybe one day I'll get over it and have a set of class-D monoblocks hidden away driving an active system.
Oddly though, with speakers I'm less fussy with the aesthetics.
Still, so many speakers to try and so little time - not buying one pair means you're free to try another.
Back to the speakers here, yes I'm definately someone who likes the nicely made gear too and not into getting the cheapest thing to sound the best. I've always thought that's a great philosophy and a great challenge for another day but ultimately, for me personally, unsatisfying in terms of enjoying build quality, industrial design and aesthetics. Maybe one day I'll get over it and have a set of class-D monoblocks hidden away driving an active system.
Oddly though, with speakers I'm less fussy with the aesthetics.
Except that it isn't like this. You'll find drivers in general have issues that can't be fixed, and issues that can be fixed. So a driver needs to be 'suitable' for the application. The effort in design to get any suitable driver to fit into a system outweighs the effort to fix fixable issues.
Again to disagree...all the hard work is the same and comes before picking up an iron or plugging in a box (or maybe even before deciding active or passive?).
OK...
So almost two years later I still haven't sorted a cross-over for these speakers and want to get on with it for the summer!
I am now thinking 1st Order as Dynaudio did with their Confidence 5 using the same sealed tweeter and mid, complete with delay for non-stepped time alignment. Details are here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/119337-dynaudio-confidence-5-crossover-t330d-m560d.html
M560d cut off is 800hz in that crossover before the twin bass drivers come in but how do I work in my Volt 10" bass driver in their place? Can I leave the midrange section as it is and cut and pasted an appropriate bass section for the Volt and cabinet? The Dynaudio drivers are sealed units so I'm hoping they are immune to cabinet variation in terms of cross-over..
I'm a newbie really when it comes to this, so the most practical help will be much appreciated! Once basically working, I intend to get them tweaked by experts offering speaker measurement services so really this is just to get the basics down..
So almost two years later I still haven't sorted a cross-over for these speakers and want to get on with it for the summer!
I am now thinking 1st Order as Dynaudio did with their Confidence 5 using the same sealed tweeter and mid, complete with delay for non-stepped time alignment. Details are here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/119337-dynaudio-confidence-5-crossover-t330d-m560d.html
M560d cut off is 800hz in that crossover before the twin bass drivers come in but how do I work in my Volt 10" bass driver in their place? Can I leave the midrange section as it is and cut and pasted an appropriate bass section for the Volt and cabinet? The Dynaudio drivers are sealed units so I'm hoping they are immune to cabinet variation in terms of cross-over..
I'm a newbie really when it comes to this, so the most practical help will be much appreciated! Once basically working, I intend to get them tweaked by experts offering speaker measurement services so really this is just to get the basics down..
Hi there Nat,
just out of curiosity, have you tried doing your own measurements?
Since you will eventually have these speakers tweaked by third party,
what is the purpose of buying Confidence 5 parts now?
If I were you I would first simulate with the manufacturer's graphs just to
feel where this might lead to and then give another thought to measuring
myself, simulate again only this time with better accuracy for these would
be plots of your actual boxes.
Drive units are good quality. Mid and tweeter are sealed, need no other
volume, priced as premium products back in their own time. The potential for
good sound is there. Please post all the woofer data you have here.
just out of curiosity, have you tried doing your own measurements?
Since you will eventually have these speakers tweaked by third party,
what is the purpose of buying Confidence 5 parts now?
If I were you I would first simulate with the manufacturer's graphs just to
feel where this might lead to and then give another thought to measuring
myself, simulate again only this time with better accuracy for these would
be plots of your actual boxes.
Drive units are good quality. Mid and tweeter are sealed, need no other
volume, priced as premium products back in their own time. The potential for
good sound is there. Please post all the woofer data you have here.
Hi Lojzek,
I've not tried making any measurements yet as I have no cross-overs at all as yet.. I could try sweeping each driver in only their frequency ranges but would be wary of damaging the drivers driving them direct..
Really the purpose of getting the parts now would just to do SOMETHING... as trying to get it right first time has instead made me take no action whatsoever in almost 2 years LoL. And I guess I would rather make a guess at something which I would stick with rather than spending money on a much simpler cross-over knowing I would junk the parts.
Good idea with the simulation (although I don't really know how to do that as I'm pretty new to this, but can give it a try with the right software).
It's good to have that confirmed as I would really like to re-design the current cabinets (they are pretty large, too much for my appartment) and move to something which is just a bass enclosure with the mid and tweeter mounted as a seperate unit on top, which can be pretty simple as they are sealed units.
So, the Volt B2500.1 I have is from 1994 and has the following specs (these are different to current production). I have the original datasheet and the datasheet for some other Volt drivers from 1994 if anyone wants the data...
Volt B2500.1 (circa 1994) Thiele-Small Parameters:
Fs = 25Hz
Re = 5.9ohms
Qa = 1.4
Qe = 0.25
Qt = 0.21
Vas = 51 litres
Xmax = 5.5mm
Sd = 299 cm^3
Vd = 164 cm^3
Le = 0.8 mH
Other parameters (for completeness):
Nominal Diameter = 250 mm
Power Capacity = 250 watts
Sensitivity = 90 dB/watt/m
Frequency Range = 25-1000Hz
Impedance = 8/16 ohms (I'll have to check which I have...)
Bl Factor = 20.3
Voice Coil Diameter = 75 mm
Voice Coil Material = Copper
Maximum Excursion = 25mm (before damage)
Magnet Assembly weight = 8.1 kg
Effective Moving Mass = 0.11kg
Compliance = 0.00037 M/N
Volume displaced by unit = 4.5 litres
I've not tried making any measurements yet as I have no cross-overs at all as yet.. I could try sweeping each driver in only their frequency ranges but would be wary of damaging the drivers driving them direct..
Really the purpose of getting the parts now would just to do SOMETHING... as trying to get it right first time has instead made me take no action whatsoever in almost 2 years LoL. And I guess I would rather make a guess at something which I would stick with rather than spending money on a much simpler cross-over knowing I would junk the parts.
Good idea with the simulation (although I don't really know how to do that as I'm pretty new to this, but can give it a try with the right software).
It's good to have that confirmed as I would really like to re-design the current cabinets (they are pretty large, too much for my appartment) and move to something which is just a bass enclosure with the mid and tweeter mounted as a seperate unit on top, which can be pretty simple as they are sealed units.
So, the Volt B2500.1 I have is from 1994 and has the following specs (these are different to current production). I have the original datasheet and the datasheet for some other Volt drivers from 1994 if anyone wants the data...
Volt B2500.1 (circa 1994) Thiele-Small Parameters:
Fs = 25Hz
Re = 5.9ohms
Qa = 1.4
Qe = 0.25
Qt = 0.21
Vas = 51 litres
Xmax = 5.5mm
Sd = 299 cm^3
Vd = 164 cm^3
Le = 0.8 mH
Other parameters (for completeness):
Nominal Diameter = 250 mm
Power Capacity = 250 watts
Sensitivity = 90 dB/watt/m
Frequency Range = 25-1000Hz
Impedance = 8/16 ohms (I'll have to check which I have...)
Bl Factor = 20.3
Voice Coil Diameter = 75 mm
Voice Coil Material = Copper
Maximum Excursion = 25mm (before damage)
Magnet Assembly weight = 8.1 kg
Effective Moving Mass = 0.11kg
Compliance = 0.00037 M/N
Volume displaced by unit = 4.5 litres
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and an interesting thing about such numbers is that they never have a variation parameter (like standard deviation or say, interquartile range).
That reveals we are not talking rational or scientific but commercial.
Or more broadly making boxes and crossovers is try-and-retry. No way around that unless, as some of us try to do, if you need two tweeters, you buy three and use the best matched pair.
Ben
Check, check...for 16 Ω, inductor's value will be double
The Volt B2500.1 I have is 8 ohms
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