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Old 1st June 2013, 07:53 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by dumptruck View Post
That's another measurement you need to be gating properly, like Lynn is describing. Thinking about in-room sound and measuring it is all well and good, but you need to measure the direct output without reflected sound to do the sorts of things you're posting about, like finding flaws in the crossover and messing with phase plugs.
Sure, thanks for your suggestion!
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Old 1st June 2013, 09:23 AM   #22
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"The effects are proportional to the volume setting" - are you sure about this? I guess with increase of reproduction volume (especially in smaller rooms) reflections could build up to be percieved to a larger degree than direct signal so more of attenuation can be required with increased volume.

"What correlation with the HF dip contributes to the sensation that makes you feel as if you are in a larger room" - I guess because high frequencies have faster DD (double-distance) decay rate compared to mids. It was mentioned in Toole's book. That's just how big rooms sound: HF reflections are attenuated as they lose their energy travelling long distances.
Could you grasp the relation between the loudness curve and the Blauert directional bands ? Those are the German links.
The 500Hz and 3KHz peak are related to presence (added focus in the phantom image) while the 8...9KHz sag is related to diffuseness (removed focus from tweeters).
Anyway, good to hear that I am not the only one, who prefers such a FR (for wide dispersion speakers) !

The higher the directivity of the speakers, the less of this required. But at the same time the listening distance has to become greater in order to stay within the preferred D/R ratio.
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Old 1st June 2013, 10:12 AM   #23
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"the preferred D/R ratio"? Preferred by whom and why?
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Old 1st June 2013, 10:59 AM   #24
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all on my web site and I think you have asked this before.
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Old 1st June 2013, 11:27 AM   #25
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Perhaps I didn't get a satisfactory answer or maybe the answer is just not there.

Or are you simply talking about your personal preference? You made it sound like it's universally applicable.
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Old 1st June 2013, 11:35 AM   #26
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Go and have another look. I am sure you will find it
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Old 1st June 2013, 11:47 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
"the preferred D/R ratio"? Preferred by whom and why?
Its from the Toole's book. Experiment was made within variable D/R ratio (from an-echoic to echoic) room involving many people with different background including experienced listeners like sound professionals, but also people totally unrelated to audio industry. To cover group with special needs some persons having diagnosis of partial hearing loss were also participating.

Resulting matrix had shown that majority of preference went for D/R ratio of 1. Some of sound engineers gave preference for reflected sound to be attenuated by 3dB (attributed to professional habit to pay more attention to direct sound) while people with impaired hearing wanted reflected signal attenuated by at least 6dB (obviously when you have trouble with resolution then spatial envelopment works more like masking blur and becomes undesirable). Only few preferred reverberant signal to exceed direct signal, but nobody liked reflections to be significantly reduced or eliminated as it reduced pleasantness of spatial envelopment of reflected sound that we humans seem to possess naturally.

I must look into the book again to see if I remember the data correctly, unfortunately not possible at the moment as I'm fighting fever in my father-in-law house to be quarantined from kids.
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Old 1st June 2013, 11:56 AM   #28
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This is not what I was referring to. Try pages 457 - 461.
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Old 1st June 2013, 12:47 PM   #29
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Go and have another look. I am sure you will find it
You're trying to place the burden of proof on the wrong side. You made the claim, not me.
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Old 2nd June 2013, 07:36 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6.283 View Post
Could you grasp the relation between the loudness curve and the Blauert directional bands ? Those are the German links.
The 500Hz and 3KHz peak are related to presence (added focus in the phantom image) while the 8...9KHz sag is related to diffuseness (removed focus from tweeters).
Totally agree with that! Now to find whats the historical reason to prefer equalization in smaller cavities compared to open-air is the question for athropologists, I guess it should be part of evolution - our ancestors had to hear differently in caves compared to open air. What also came into my mind is that nature provides at least three great sources to normalize our hearing: heavy rainfall, big waterfalls and ocean waves all providing spectrum close to pink noise. No wonder that many people use these recordings as a therapy - we probably get tired for being in rooms too long partially because of our hearing is in constantly room-adapted state.

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Anyway, good to hear that I am not the only one, who prefers such a FR (for wide dispersion speakers) !
My feelings exactly A huge relief, needless to say.

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Originally Posted by 6.283 View Post
The higher the directivity of the speakers, the less of this required. But at the same time the listening distance has to become greater in order to stay within the preferred D/R ratio.
You nailed it! Now I'm going to summarize what methods we can use to implement it on different speaker types.
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