I'm about to go and get the MDF... - diyAudio
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Old 3rd December 2003, 11:22 PM   #1
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Location: Bristol, UK
Arrow I'm about to go and get the MDF...

and I just wanted to get your opinions before I start.

This is my first go at this sort of thing, and it would be nice to get a good result first time out, but remember i'm a n00b.

Driver: Pioneer TS-W305C (i know it's a car sub, but it's for my car)

Specs (copied and pasted straight from the pioneer PDF)
Nom. Dia.(In) 12
Qts 0.340
Qms 15.095
Qes 0.348
Fs[Hz] 32.7
Vas[l] 51.45
Vas[ft3] 1.817
Sd[m2] 4.60E-02
Sd[ft2] 0.495
Revc[ohm] 3.0
Levc[mH]at 2000Hz 2.107
Xmax[mm] 9.2
Xmax[In] 0.36
Zmax[ohm] 139.18
Bl[Tm] 15.988
Rms[Ns/m] 1.875
Mms[g] 138.20
Cms[m/N] 1.717E-04
Mg.Wt.[g] 2350
Flux Density [Gauss] 6500
Hag[mm] 10
Hag[In] 0.394
Hvc[mm] 28
Hvc[In] 1.102
VC.Diameter[mm] 55
Eff[%] 0.50
S.P.L.[dB] 89
R.M.S.Power[W] 400
M.M.P.[W] 800
Sp. Displacement[l] 2.36
Sp. Displacement[ft3] 0.083
Recom. Enclosure[l] 42.5
Recom. Enclosure[ft3] 1.5
F0(in Cabinet) 48.6
Q0(in Cabinet) 0.506

I then added to WinISD like this (please let me know if any of them are wrong)

[Main]
Name=Pioneer TS-W305C
EnteredBy=MikeHunt79
Comment=
Date=02/12/2003
[Parameters]
Z=4
Fs=32.7
Pe=400
SPL=89
Re=3
Le=2.11
BL=15.99
Xmax=0.0092
Cms=0
Qms=9
Qes=0.35
Qts=0.39
Rms=0
Mms=0
Sd=0.046
Vas=51.5
Dia=0.3
DualVC=0
Type=0

^This is the contents of the "Pioneer TS-W305C.dri" file, you can just copy/paste it if you wanna add this to your database.

Ok, after a bit of fiddling I managed to get a nice vented box:

Click the image to open in full size.

Red line = Sealed (50l)
Yellow line = Vented (50l) = Box i got with the sub
Green line = Vented (100l) = What I'm gonna build (tuned it to 30Hz, there not much point in going lower is there?)
I had a go at band pass, but didn't get any good results.

Opinions wanted please.

Also... Do you think 18mm MDF would do the trick? Would It help If I used battons? (I can get 18mm for almost free you see)

Also, I was thinking of mounting the amp on the side of the box near the top (away from the middle)... Is this a good/bad idea?

Lastly, this is should sound good, yes? (well, I'd be happy if the green line is gonna sound better than the yellow one).
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Old 4th December 2003, 12:25 AM   #2
sreten is online now sreten  United Kingdom
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Location: Brighton UK
Looks to me it would be a lot easier to just remove the port from
the 50L box, i.e. seal it and use an amplifier with an adjustable
40Hz boost, which are quite common.

alternatively :
Seems to me your 50L box port tuning frequency is too high.
You could try lining the port of the box you have with foam,
you'll need a piece 3x diameter and the port length.
Foam thickness around 8mm - assuming port = 50mm.
A lot easier than building a new box.

/sreten.
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Old 4th December 2003, 01:31 AM   #3
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Location: NZ
Firstly=use winisd pro

Secondly=
2 cube 33hz tune looks good
1x4" port 32cm long

that gives less peaking action.Dont forget cabin gain.u may need to EQ down the bass(better than not having enuf and sucking up power)

When i do WINISD i go
Vas Qes Qms Fs Re Sd Xmax Pe

and just let the other figures work themselves out...

the winisd helpfile tells u how.

usualy you arent told them.
EDIT=
Cheers
Quote:
was thinking of mounting the amp on the side of the box near the top
i dont reccomend that.it depends on how u mount it,with rubberfeet or not,how much SPL you have and how flexy your box is..the vibrations can cause problems in the pcbs i heard((i know a guy in Auckland who fixes amps)
Attached Images
File Type: png mikes.png (4.1 KB, 604 views)
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Old 4th December 2003, 01:43 AM   #4
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Location: Boston, MA
I wouldn't use that driver in a ported box; Consider cabin gain. The recommended (sealed) box size of 42.5 litres (Q=0.5), should work fine (as far as I can tell); You could probably even go a little smaller. 100 litres is a substantial box.

Check out SubWoofers.ORG for more info.
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Old 4th December 2003, 01:49 AM   #5
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Default Oops; This is the link that I meant to post:

DIYsubwoofers.ORG
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Old 4th December 2003, 11:51 AM   #6
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50 litres tuned to 30Hz... and I have no idea how you got graphs looking like that..... (I didn't try either.. lol)
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Old 4th December 2003, 12:16 PM   #7
Volenti is offline Volenti  Australia
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Ok, I've used these subs before, they're quite impressive.

important questions;

What car do you have? (hatch ,sedan ect)

what kinds/style of music do you listen to?

what are your bass "requirements" (smooth audiophile, sharp rappy, low boomy ect)

If the car suits it I usually prefer them sealed, like so;

Click the image to open in full size.

each sub in a seperate ~35-40L chamber;

Click the image to open in full size.

Some older sedans have next to no ready opening to fire a sub through so a bandpass enclosure is required; (note, the middle speaker grille is the port)

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

an important thing to note with bandpass enclosures is that, typically, a "by the book" enclosure won't sound the best, and a higher tuning frequency than normal is required to prevent the enclosure from sounding mushy/boomy.
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Old 4th December 2003, 12:23 PM   #8
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Location: Melbourne, Australia
Default "Whole lotta shakin' goin' on"

Quote:
Originally posted by MikeHunt79
I had a go at band pass, but didn't get any good results.
I've never built a bandpass. Some people say they are difficult to get going properly, but, FWIW...
Attached Images
File Type: png shakin.png (6.8 KB, 497 views)
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Old 4th December 2003, 01:58 PM   #9
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Thanx for the replys guys, theres some really good stuff here.
Quote:
Originally posted by sreten
Looks to me it would be a lot easier to just remove the port from the 50L box, i.e. seal it and use an amplifier with an adjustable 40Hz boost, which are quite common.

alternatively :
Seems to me your 50L box port tuning frequency is too high.
You could try lining the port of the box you have with foam,
you'll need a piece 3x diameter and the port length.
Foam thickness around 8mm - assuming port = 50mm.
A lot easier than building a new box.

/sreten.
Good idea. I'll have to see what it sounds like sealed in the current box when sealed. I'll wedge a glass in the port or something, and see what it sounds like.

AI might give the foam idea a go aswell, I might aswell experiement with my existing box first.

It does have quite a good sound as it stands, but I think it can be made a lot better.
Quote:
Originally posted by mikee12345
Firstly=use winisd pro

Secondly=
2 cube 33hz tune looks good
1x4" port 32cm long

that gives less peaking action.Dont forget cabin gain.u may need to EQ down the bass(better than not having enuf and sucking up power)

When i do WINISD i go
Vas Qes Qms Fs Re Sd Xmax Pe

and just let the other figures work themselves out...

the winisd helpfile tells u how.

usualy you arent told them.
EDIT=
Cheers
i dont reccomend that.it depends on how u mount it,with rubberfeet or not,how much SPL you have and how flexy your box is..the vibrations can cause problems in the pcbs i heard((i know a guy in Auckland who fixes amps)
I see what you mean about the peaking. I had another go with WinISD pro, and found that 80l (around 2.8 cube) tuned to 30Hz also gave a flatter response than my previous 100l design.

Also, I'll be sure to find another place to mount the amp... Even tho it's still under warranty, I don't want to risk any damage to it since this is a good amp (Rockford Fosgate).
Quote:
Originally posted by cadmaniac
I wouldn't use that driver in a ported box; Consider cabin gain. The recommended (sealed) box size of 42.5 litres (Q=0.5), should work fine (as far as I can tell); You could probably even go a little smaller. 100 litres is a substantial box.
I'll have to read up on cabin gain, as I have no idea about it (yet).

I just looked at the red line in the WinISD graph (which is for the sealed enclosure) and thought that it would sound bad since the low frequecies drop of below 100Hz (ie, not a very flat freq response), or does it somehow cancel out cabin gain?

Also, thanx for that site link. I've only had time to have a quick glance at it, but it looks good.

Quote:
Originally posted by SkinnyBoy
50 litres tuned to 30Hz... and I have no idea how you got graphs looking like that..... (I didn't try either.. lol)
For the Yellow curve, I tried to model my current box. I went thru WinISD backwards. I measured the length and diameter of the port, then kept adjusting the tuning freq in WinISD till the port size roughly matched. I put it in so I could see how much of an improvement a new box would be.
Quote:
Originally posted by Volenti
Ok, I've used these subs before, they're quite impressive.

important questions;

What car do you have? (hatch ,sedan ect)

what kinds/style of music do you listen to?

what are your bass "requirements" (smooth audiophile, sharp rappy, low boomy ect)

an important thing to note with bandpass enclosures is that, typically, a "by the book" enclosure won't sound the best, and a higher tuning frequency than normal is required to prevent the enclosure from sounding mushy/boomy.
Wow, someone using the same sub... Nice install you've done there, looks good.

My car is a Peugeot 205, which is a Hatch. Quite similar to a Civic I guess but a bit smaller. There is usually a parcel shelf seperating the boot/trunk from the cabin, but I have replaced this with a piece of MDF with some Infiniti 6x9's in.

The MDF shelf is covered with cloth which covers the speakers so it looks less appealing to thieves. I was thinking about cutting holes in the shelf in order to let the air thru from the boot. I didn't know of this would help or not tho.

As for music styles, I listen to all sorts. Electronica (Aphex Twin, Boards of Canada, Squarepusher, that sort of thing), Drum and Bass (I prefer the Ram Records style), the occasional bit of Hip-Hop (Outkast and DJ Shadow type stuff), and also a some good old fashoned Rock (been listening to lots of Queens of the Stone Age recently).

Bass requirement: Well, my main goal would be deepness. It also needs to be not to boomy tho... so tight bass is also another goal. I take it both "deep" and "tight" aren't the easiest things to achive together?

It's probably worth mentioning that EQing is not a problem for me as I'm using a computer in my car as my music player, and there is a myriad of software that is able to do good EQ.
Quote:
Originally posted by Circlotron

I've never built a bandpass. Some people say they are difficult to get going properly, but, FWIW...
You're sure did a better than me... I deleted most of my bandpass attempts cause they were so bad.

That does look like it will go really really deep, which is what I'm after. If this doen't sound too boomy (apparently this is a possibility) then this design is definately a possibilty.
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Old 4th December 2003, 02:41 PM   #10
Volenti is offline Volenti  Australia
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Location: Australia
Quote:
Originally posted by MikeHunt79


My car is a Peugeot 205, which is a Hatch. Quite similar to a Civic I guess but a bit smaller. There is usually a parcel shelf seperating the boot/trunk from the cabin, but I have replaced this with a piece of MDF with some Infiniti 6x9's in.

The MDF shelf is covered with cloth which covers the speakers so it looks less appealing to thieves. I was thinking about cutting holes in the shelf in order to let the air thru from the boot. I didn't know of this would help or not tho.


ok, given your bass needs, the driver and the car I feel that sealed is the only option. The mdf parcel shelf is a liabality and needs to be eliminated unless you construct the enclosure so that the driver is on the top and fires directly through a (12'') hole in the shelf.

If you simply have the sub in a box with the mdf hatch cover above (with air holes) you're simply making a badly tuned 4th order bandpass enclosure.

The 6x9's are no longer needed for bass duties and shoud be high passed so they don't interfere with the 12''
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