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Old 25th October 2013, 11:48 PM   #251
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
Of course not but with headphones one can simulate any loudspeaker and room setup. Imagine the possibilities.
-yes, but why would you want to simulate an inferior format? (..well, other than for research.)

Better to just convolve to binaural than simulate any loudspeaker room setup.

This is *precisely* the question I asked myself in relation to purchasing the Smyth unit.

-and for me the answer was: I wouldn't.
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Old 26th October 2013, 07:08 AM   #252
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Default Hearing-and-the-future-of-loudspeaker-design

The thread's title explains it all.
OP asked why and how wouldn't DSP be a betterment for original systems.
For me, even the infamous 'loudness button' is a strange way to overcome some issues. Do I need a mixed pole filter ( ? ) on the signal path at very low levels of listening or am I trying to achieve the sensation of instruments playing by trying to let the chain introduce less errors ?
So if you follow me, I might say that I know that till the speakers the sound
( the signal at line level and the powered one ) is perfect and after is a mess.
My self-delivered mission is to extablish what happens in the trasduction stage and that involves not merely mechanic process but it reflectes toward the listener. And that's a big problem, but negating the story of the sound itself by deliberately make it closer to the ears - so no evolution in the ambient- is not the solution, not at all !
So here's DIY and most of us are proud of our creations, as other commercial proposals didn't meet absolutely the pre-requisites I was expecting. Nor they are knowing what they are delivering. But even if I build the most perfect speaker and insert it after a perfect 'chain' and I hear to the sound that exits from this processment, I'm still not happy.
Why ? Because it didn't meet my expectations...or I wasn't in the mood.
So what do I do ? Still applying myself on the matter...
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Old 26th October 2013, 08:12 AM   #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottG View Post
-yes, but why would you want to simulate an inferior format? (..well, other than for research.)

Better to just convolve to binaural than simulate any loudspeaker room setup.

This is *precisely* the question I asked myself in relation to purchasing the Smyth unit.

-and for me the answer was: I wouldn't.
Two reasons that may not apply to you: You can't afford to build a space with certain acoustic properties. You can't afford certain speakers.

But my point was, with a headphone based VR simulator you can do whatever you want: simulate any number of real speakers, any number of near-perfect speakers. Have crosstalk, eliminate crosstalk. Apply matrixing or any other kind of upmix. Change room acoustics. Move speakers to different locations. Besides the fact that some of this can't be done with real loudspeakers in real rooms, how much would that cost to do in the real world?
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Old 26th October 2013, 08:21 AM   #254
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picowallspeaker, you're talking in riddles.
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Old 26th October 2013, 08:35 AM   #255
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I don't know what's the meaning of riddles...well..maybe.
Of course a very light membrane will have less ringing and a prompter response at the impulse, faster decay, it would not move much air...but if you confine it to the very near-near field
And, yes, HPs might be a nice model but they do negate the second evolvement in space and time - the first is the original event that dictates the second - and so the next generation of loudspeakers would have to take in consideration the rise-decay time and sustain of which the music -and the sound of music- is made by.How do you achieve this ?
By manipulating the original event to fit your tastes or whatever ?
DSP does that
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Old 26th October 2013, 08:45 AM   #256
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^
What is "the second evolvement in space and time"? The speaker/room interaction when a recording is played back? If yes, this is simply the transfer function from a speaker to the ears. It can be measured and applied to headphone playback by convolution. That's how the Smyth Realiser works.
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Old 26th October 2013, 03:52 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
That's all interesting but when we consider the magnitude of errors inherent in loudspeaker reproduction – which can be resolved with headphones – then the main argument against headphones is it can't recreate the "LF SPL around the torso"??
Markus - now you sound like the guy who just wants to win the argument! I never took a position on headphones right, wrong or indifferent. I was simply correcting errors in your statements.

Having heard great binaural recordings, it is clear that headphones are ideal at the "You are there." illusion. LF SPL augmentation will improve that illusion. But I prefer loudspeakers for the "They are here." illusion of recordings made deliberately for two channel. Yet, when I am travelling I use headphones far more than I listen to loudspeakers, so their performance is critical to me
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Old 26th October 2013, 04:04 PM   #258
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I'm talking about a VR simulator that utilizes personalized HRTFs. I'm not talking about speaker vs. headphones.
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Old 31st October 2013, 04:05 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by Melo theory View Post
Yes, binaural with shakers.....
This is as good as we can do fellas.
Hi Jason,
I can feel vibrations through the floor/chair sometimes using headphones only, even though there is nothing there...
This one usually does that, for me:
Freesound.org - "building work.flac" by dwareing
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Old 31st October 2013, 04:39 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
Exactly the "practical" approach I was talking about

By the way, I don't think there are many recordings compatible with crosstalk cancellation. Stereo is NOT a binaural reproduction technique. It works BECAUSE of crosstalk. At the same time crosstalk introduces significant errors.
Practical crosstalk cancellation. is not the same as using headphones. You are exposed to reflected sounds from the room. It is also impractical to cancel at very low frequencies as that would require drive levels approching infinity. It can, and to a varying extent (depending on the filter) does, convert level differences to ITDs, In practice it does work quite well with stereo and is also somewhat flawed for binaural, for the above reasons..
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