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Old 15th May 2013, 10:09 AM   #11
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Compensate..compensate...
Someone must be having some brain loss
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Old 15th May 2013, 10:26 AM   #12
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Old 15th May 2013, 04:23 PM   #13
dangwei is offline dangwei  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudolf View Post
Loudspeakers are not flat (or linear) because peoples hearing is flat. Loudspeakers are flat because they should reproduce sound exactly as it has been recorded.

Our hearing is everything else but linear. But that doesn't matter because our brain compensates for that - on an individual basis. If there is severe hearing loss, it should be compensated at the individual ear (by hearing aid or earphone), but not in a loudspeaker, when other people listen to it too.

Rudolf
Thank you for the reply! The issue is: People's hearing is not flat...nor linear. Nor does our brain compensate for this. You cannot hear what you cannot hear. For example take a hearing test across the "common" 32 band EQ frequencies. You will discover that your audible perception between this range may differ up to 5 dbs from one end to the other. In the middle there may be differences of up to or more than 1db. For the individual frequency, an individual's hearing may be able to detect differences in volume of as little as .1 db.

A hearing aid is nothing but a loudspeaker placed closer to the ear.

As for Marku's reply:

Many sound engineers do already compensate for their own hearing variances, at least the competent ones. However, they cannot account for variances in our hearing. Take myself for example. I have rolling off hearing loss after 18Khz and perhaps due to too much listening of jazz vocals, hearing differences of more than 2db between 400 and 800hz. However, I want to listen to the music that is intended by the recording. As of now, there is no hearing aid or medical apparatus that can serve this function.

This idea is really not a viable for commercial or mass offering since the speaker maker cannot account for the variations of each buyer. However, in the area of DIY, this is where with the help of digital crossover, quite simple to accomplish. I dare not say I know how the brain works and hence the only layout the proposition. What I can however say for sure is that when speaking of accuracy and precision, our ears do add inconsistency and distortion to the chain

Last edited by dangwei; 15th May 2013 at 04:34 PM. Reason: Thanks to picowallspeaker's catch
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Old 15th May 2013, 04:30 PM   #14
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The frequency is expressed in Hertz, Hz ( capital, it's a name )
and Kilo ( X 1000 ) is capital, too .

The last proposition is simply absurd
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Old 15th May 2013, 04:32 PM   #15
dangwei is offline dangwei  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johno View Post
Hi Dangwei, an interesting but seriously flawed proposition.
I like classical music and I prefer it live - however I live in a rural area far from the nearest orchestra etc so I play my Vinyls and CDs. I want my music reproduction to be as close as possible to what I experience at the opera house.

After a lifetime of motor cycle helmet wind noise my hearing is seriously degraded. Because of this, what I experience at the opera house is unique to me, but it is what I regard as the truth. And it is more or less what I hear through my stereo.
I really like this reply. It shows that there is no one answer when it comes to music! In your viewpoint, you are are looking for the reproduction of your music and what you heard. In my viewpoint, I want to reproduce the music the artist created and hears/intends for us to hear. Of course this isn't an issue of correct and incorrect.

In relation to the original post, to you my view is precise as the points relate to the same topic but to you, inaccurate as they all hit very far from where your intentions lie. Hence the difference between precision and accuracy.
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Old 15th May 2013, 04:33 PM   #16
Ronion is offline Ronion  United States
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Google the El Greco Fallacy.
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Old 15th May 2013, 04:35 PM   #17
dangwei is offline dangwei  United States
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My mistake. I meant *digital crossover. Sorry for the confusion.
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Old 15th May 2013, 04:50 PM   #18
dangwei is offline dangwei  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronion View Post
Google the El Greco Fallacy.
Thanks! This is great reading! For those that do not know or lazy to read: The El Greco Fallacy summarized is that:

The subjects of painter El Greco's paintings are elongated. It is then suggested that since El Greco suffers from astigmatism, his perception is visually narrow and hence the reason for the elongated subjects in his paintings. The flaw or fallacy in this case is that if El Greco suffers from astigmatism, his view of his canvas and what he paints will also be narrower and hence cancel out his visual perception.

I don't know if this applies to music "reproduction" since I am neither the artist, recorder nor mixing engineer. As a DIY speaker maker, my goal is to recreate the sound as true as possible to what the artist hears (the recorder and mixing engineer as well), and if it means my hearing is vastly different from his, to correct the playback system to adjust for my personal hearing variance.
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Old 15th May 2013, 05:23 PM   #19
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If the variance in hearing between individual listeners is so large, then there is no point in trying to hear through the artists ears. The currently accepted means to preserve accuracy or precision is the best that we are going to get. Van Gogh was another good example, i do not want to see through his eyes, indeed i do not have to, i already see his perception of the world in his style. Altering my view to see the same view as he did is altering my perception by distorting the original medium.

A bit like going to a live concert, sitting in your preferred row, then recording the same concert from a different row and doctoring the recording so that it sounds like the seat you sat in during the concert. A bit pointless, in my opinion.
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Last edited by mondogenerator; 15th May 2013 at 05:26 PM.
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Old 15th May 2013, 05:23 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dangwei View Post
For example take a hearing test across the "common" 32 band EQ frequencies. You will discover that your audible perception between this range may differ up to 5 dbs from one end to the other.
Are you sure you're talking about a proper hearing test and not equal-loudness contours?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dangwei View Post
Many sound engineers do already compensate for their own hearing variances, at least the competent ones.
Do you see the white triangle?

Click the image to open in full size.

Although you know that there really is no white triangle, you still see it. Your conscious mind can't overrule subconscious processes.
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