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Old 9th April 2013, 07:37 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Melo theory View Post
Sorry to hijack the thread but Mr. Bateman's PM box is full.....

Dear Patrick,

I have noticed from some of your posts that you are into car audio. I am desperately trying to find a DVD head unit that encodes Dolby digital, DTS and pro logic II.

I was going to do a MS matrix wiring to use with a center channel but pro logic II seems to be the best solution.

Please PM me!

Thanx Patrick. Now, I have to go....."I have to return some video tapes"
I am not aware of any.
My car does this in the stock system and it definitely sounds very nice. This is probably the best stock system I've ever heard. (It's not perfect, there's no bass, but it gets the midrange right and that's important.)

You might be able to find the head unit on ebay, it's the Lexicon head unit from a Hyundai Genesis.

If you're in the market for a new car, it's a steal, I think I paid something like $31K for mine Fit and finish of a Lexus or an Infiniti for the price of Toyota Camry.
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Old 9th April 2013, 08:01 PM   #12
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Oh yeah, I do like that car. My buddy's Acura TL has Dolby Digital audio and it was amazing. I just bought a civic SI.

I don't know why multi-channel car audio fell by the wayside....
What better place to have a center channel? Everybody is off axis!
Arrrgggg! I'm going to pull my hair out!
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Old 9th April 2013, 09:21 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
I think this is very exciting news, because it dramatically simplifies Unity horns. We can *finally* have a two way Unity horn that goes down to 100hz. This makes e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g so much easier:
Having built a pair of Paralines, and having lived with them for a few months now I have to question your logic a bit. Building a quality set (or quad in your case!) of Paralines is a good bit of work if they're intended for hi fi. Obviously by now we know that a comp driver on a Paraline will not measure anywhere near flat. On mine there are some anomalies that can't be eq'd out.....though I admit that's probably more so due to my construction. The way the mids enter those VTC boxes looks pretty questionable as well when you consider the comp driver's response. You also have to build the horn shell like you would with a Synergy. How about the vertical? Would you keep the 10 deg or so of the Paraline, or would you "shade" the top and bottom Paraline sections for wider dispersion?

I don't see anything at all easier with a Paraline Synergy, just a different set of trade-offs. Mid selection I suppose but if you build it to play to 100hz you're just introducing worse trade-offs IMO as far as the mid entrance ports go.

If I could have a re-do, I would have built "regular" Synergies from the start. Would have saved a lot of other headaches. That said, I'm not knocking the Paraline. I've got mine to where they're sounding pretty good, and I've learned a lot in this process about horns and audio in general. That in itself has been worth it.

There are several proven Synergy designs floating around the web now, and with bwaslo's cut list spreadsheet things are even better. It's really too bad about those Celestions. If they made them available to the public I bet they could move a few through PE.

Has JLH made any progress on his Paralines? I'd like to see what he comes up with.......
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Old 9th April 2013, 09:55 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by natehansen66 View Post
Having built a pair of Paralines, and having lived with them for a few months now I have to question your logic a bit. Building a quality set (or quad in your case!) of Paralines is a good bit of work if they're intended for hi fi. Obviously by now we know that a comp driver on a Paraline will not measure anywhere near flat. On mine there are some anomalies that can't be eq'd out.....though I admit that's probably more so due to my construction. The way the mids enter those VTC boxes looks pretty questionable as well when you consider the comp driver's response. You also have to build the horn shell like you would with a Synergy. How about the vertical? Would you keep the 10 deg or so of the Paraline, or would you "shade" the top and bottom Paraline sections for wider dispersion?

I don't see anything at all easier with a Paraline Synergy, just a different set of trade-offs. Mid selection I suppose but if you build it to play to 100hz you're just introducing worse trade-offs IMO as far as the mid entrance ports go.

If I could have a re-do, I would have built "regular" Synergies from the start. Would have saved a lot of other headaches. That said, I'm not knocking the Paraline. I've got mine to where they're sounding pretty good, and I've learned a lot in this process about horns and audio in general. That in itself has been worth it.

There are several proven Synergy designs floating around the web now, and with bwaslo's cut list spreadsheet things are even better. It's really too bad about those Celestions. If they made them available to the public I bet they could move a few through PE.

Has JLH made any progress on his Paralines? I'd like to see what he comes up with.......
I've ordered some drivers, but I'll need to bust out the CAD program before I make a final decision on whether it'll use a Paraline.

I *definitely* want to use two compression drivers per side. If I could justify the cost, I would use four. With four compression drivers, we could definitely get the xover point down to 500hz. I think with two we should be able to get it down to 700hz.

There are a couple ways to use two compression drivers:

Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.
option one: two compression drivers in a Paraline, a la the VTC EL210 and the Yorkville PSA1.

OR

Click the image to open in full size.
option two: two compression drivers in a Unity/Synergy horn, basically by arraying two horns next to each other so that they function as a single unit

If I'm not mistaken, the horn in option two would have to be fairly small in order to get the compression drivers to sum constructively. For instance, if the center to center spacing exceeds 13.5" you're going to see comb filtering above 1khz. This is dramatically complicated by the fact that the devices have directivity. Basically I believe that there's going to be a juggling act; if the center to center spacing is too big, they won't sum constructively at the low end of the compression driver's output. If they're too tight, they'll interfere with each other in the compression driver's midband.
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Old 9th April 2013, 10:43 PM   #15
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Hi Patrick,
When you mentioned 4 CD's per-side I instantly though of an idea.
You could build another "Stargate" device WITHOUT the top plate. Then mount it upside down on top of the existing stargate device (using the existing top). Then turn it sideways and add whatever horn to it.
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Old 9th April 2013, 10:47 PM   #16
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Hi Patrick,
When you mentioned 4 CD's per-side I instantly though of an idea.
You could build another "Stargate" device WITHOUT the top plate. Then mount it upside down on top of the existing stargate device (using the existing top). Then turn it sideways and add whatever horn to it.
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Old 9th April 2013, 10:51 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by fuji6 View Post
Hi Patrick,
When you mentioned 4 CD's per-side I instantly though of an idea.
You could build another "Stargate" device WITHOUT the top plate. Then mount it upside down on top of the existing stargate device (using the existing top). Then turn it sideways and add whatever horn to it.
Hmmm I'll have to try and visualize that!
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Old 9th April 2013, 10:55 PM   #18
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Click the image to open in full size.

Here's a quick mock up of what the double Unity might look like. (Visualize the box flipped 90 degrees; my image host has a maximum width of 800 pixels.)

Basically two 40x40 degree Unity horns splayed together.
Since the device is designed to be used in unison, I'm having them share a single cabinet.
So basically the device has about 80 degrees of coverage horizontally, and about 40 degrees vertically.
Vertical coverage will collapse fairly early, because the box is only 30cm tall. So basically below 1133hz, the vertical pattern will broaden. This probably isn't the end of the world, since reflections off the floor and ceiling aren't as destructive as horizontal reflections.

One big question I have is whether the gap between the horns will cause major issues.
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Old 9th April 2013, 11:05 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
Hmmm I'll have to try and visualize that!
Think of it as building a stargate, then building another one on top of it.
So the layers you would have are.
Bottom plate (entrances holes for the first set of CD's)
3 plates with the guts of the stargate.
Top plate (acts as the top of the upside down stargate as well).
3 plates with guts of the second stargate.
"Bottom plate" (entrance holes for the second pair of CD's)

I have no idea if it would work, but it was just an idea.
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Old 10th April 2013, 05:30 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by natehansen66 View Post
Having built a pair of Paralines, and having lived with them for a few months now I have to question your logic a bit. Building a quality set (or quad in your case!) of Paralines is a good bit of work if they're intended for hi fi. Obviously by now we know that a comp driver on a Paraline will not measure anywhere near flat. On mine there are some anomalies that can't be eq'd out.....though I admit that's probably more so due to my construction. The way the mids enter those VTC boxes looks pretty questionable as well when you consider the comp driver's response. You also have to build the horn shell like you would with a Synergy. How about the vertical? Would you keep the 10 deg or so of the Paraline, or would you "shade" the top and bottom Paraline sections for wider dispersion?

I don't see anything at all easier with a Paraline Synergy, just a different set of trade-offs. Mid selection I suppose but if you build it to play to 100hz you're just introducing worse trade-offs IMO as far as the mid entrance ports go.

If I could have a re-do, I would have built "regular" Synergies from the start. Would have saved a lot of other headaches. That said, I'm not knocking the Paraline. I've got mine to where they're sounding pretty good, and I've learned a lot in this process about horns and audio in general. That in itself has been worth it.

There are several proven Synergy designs floating around the web now, and with bwaslo's cut list spreadsheet things are even better. It's really too bad about those Celestions. If they made them available to the public I bet they could move a few through PE.

Has JLH made any progress on his Paralines? I'd like to see what he comes up with.......
At this point, we have a couple people who've built Paralines telling me "don't build a Paraline." (That would be you and Art Welter.)

Here's some food for thought:

In January I attended the CES, and had an opportunity to listen to Don Keele's CBT array. I didn't like the sound. It sounded similar to the B&O Beolab, the one with the SAW acoustic lens. But the B&O is dynamic; the CBT was not.

My theory is that dynamic peaks in the CBT are basically 'rounded off' because the sound is radiation from a very large surface.

Click the image to open in full size.
For instance, if a 3" loudspeaker radiated an impulse into a room, the sound will reflect off of the walls, the ceiling, the floor. The sound from the CBT radiates from a much larger surface, and due to that, the troughs in the impulse are 'filled in' and the peaks are truncated.

Bottom line - the sound of the CBT was 'mushy' to my ears. (Just a subjective opinion of course, and I know that someone that bought a set of Gedlee speakers wound up selling them for CBTs.)

OK, now let's look at the Paraline.

Click the image to open in full size.
In the Paraline, we *also* have the potential for this problem. Because we have high frequencies radiating from a strip that measures about 13" in height.

Click the image to open in full size.
Now, clearly that's not as astigmatic as a Keele CBT. But it's not ideal either.

And I'm finally 'grokking' that this may be the reason that:
1) Danley doesn't sell line arrays
2) Danley sells Genesis horns, but his praise for them seems a bit qualified
3) The SH50 is the Danley flagship

Now at this point, someone will likely say "just throw in the towel already"

But I still think there's hope for the Paraline. First off, I'm not convinced that the 'wiggles' in the high frequency response are offensive. My Paralines sound pretty nice; if I had to complain about anything it would be the sound of the midranges. (Not a big fan of the two buck mids, though Bill Waslo made a good point that they shouldn't be used for such a wide bandwidth as I do.)

In my next post, I'll add some info on how we might improve on the Paraline.
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