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Old 31st March 2013, 03:35 AM   #21
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OllBoll,
You should refrain a little albeit your good intentions.

"Underhung drivers perform worse when pushed to their limits than overhung if I remember correctly."
Pushed to their limits not over their limits... maybe that's what you were thinking.
Quote:
An underhung motor will have very good Bl linearity and very low distortion up until the coil hits it's Xmax point. It is almost flat like a ruler up to the 12mm one way(24mm peak-peak) Xmax. Past 12mm it will drop quickly...
John_E_Janowitz
"The Dipole15 has less xmax and is overhung, the IB15 and the TD drivers have more xmax"
You are right with the IB15:
Xmax: 18.5mm
Xmech: 25mm

Not with the TD15M:
Xmax: 6mm

Dipole 15:
Xmax: 12/13mm? peak

LO15:
Linear Xmax 9 mm (peak)
Mech Xsus 12 mm (peak)

I also love the aesthetics and maybe that's only a problem of vocabulary if I understand. I guess one of the advantage of small magnet units for you is when they are inverted, or/and have less airflow noise.
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Old 31st March 2013, 03:46 AM   #22
OllBoll is offline OllBoll  Sweden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inductor View Post
OllBoll,
You should refrain a little albeit your good intentions.

"Underhung drivers perform worse when pushed to their limits than overhung if I remember correctly."
Pushed to their limits not over their limits... maybe that's what you were thinking.
Yes, that is it exactly... one thing I love about forums like this is that other people can clarify where oneself hasn't been clear enough =)
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Old 31st March 2013, 05:04 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inductor View Post
"The Dipole15 has less xmax and is overhung, the IB15 and the TD drivers have more xmax"
You are right with the IB15:
Xmax: 18.5mm
Xmech: 25mm

Not with the TD15M:
Xmax: 6mm

Dipole 15:
Xmax: 12/13mm? peak

LO15:
Linear Xmax 9 mm (peak)
Mech Xsus 12 mm (peak)

I also love the aesthetics and maybe that's only a problem of vocabulary if I understand. I guess one of the advantage of small magnet units for you is when they are inverted, or/and have less airflow noise.
The Dipole15 and LO15 are both underhung.

The Dipole15 has 12mm one way Xmax(24mm p-p) and about 22mm suspension travel each way. It is about 90dB 1W

The LO15 has 9mm one way Xmax (18mm p-p) and about 12mm one way suspension travel. It is about 93dB 1W

The IB15 has 18.5mm one way Xmax (37mm p-p) about 22mm one way suspension travel. It is 86.5dB 1W

The TD15M has 6mm Xmax one way (12mm p-p) and about 12mm one way suspension travel. It is 98dB 1W.

While the IB15 can play lower, it doesn't have a benefit in output over the Dipole15 until below 25hz. On any reasonable size baffle, the rolloff is just to far down to play that low.

For a general rule, if someone is ok with 30hz and higher, the LO15 can have some benefit. If you are looking to get a low end that extends down as far as 25hz, the Dipole15 becomes a better option.
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Old 31st March 2013, 11:42 PM   #24
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Thanks for sharing your extensive insight John. One question... would this be your own personal choice of manufacturer for this purpose?
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Old 1st April 2013, 03:22 PM   #25
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In any system like this I would be working with DSP for EQ, crossover, and time alignment. This is something some people shy away from and want to go with a passive system. There just aren't passive ways to go and correct for the rolloff and get the right phase throughout the crossover region. Something like the mindsp can work well as a simple option to experiment with. Other more high end options could work even better.

Here are 2 possible options I would look at. If it was simply a 2way or 2.5way system where the woofers had to play up to around 1KHz, I would choose the LO15. The cloth surround is free from a couple resonances that the foam surround has which would be an issue playing that high. I would use 2x LO15 per channel, bringing in the bottom woofer to start filling in below where the baffle step begins. This of course requires a 3rd amplifier channel but has some definite benefits compared to running both woofers this high. To cover down to 1KHz would require some kind of larger horn driver so the upper end wouldn't be open baffle.

For a 3way system I would use the 2x Dipole15 for more maximum output. I would cross over to the Dipole6 at the appropriate frequency based on the baffle step. This would typically be no higher than 300hz or so. At that point, both Dipole15's could be sent the same signal. I would then cross the Dipole6 to the RAAL dipole ribbon or AMT for the top end.
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Old 1st April 2013, 04:30 PM   #26
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Great insight John, hard, serious business as usual.
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Old 1st April 2013, 05:05 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottG View Post

The very best bass you'll get is in the NEAR-FIELD (..if only one sub positioned very near and just behind your head with the appropriate delay for proper summing.)

It will give you these properties (assuming you sit right next to them):

1. substantially more "efficient" at lower freq.s regardless of design, but particularly well suited to a dipole/ripole/cardiod.

2. substantially more linear - with less influence from standing waves.

3. greater tactile sensation (..upper bass "punch", and lower bass "slam"). It also allows the use of drivers that have these qualities that might otherwise be a poor choice for a more typical application.

The common aesthetic I mention for such a "sub" is an "end-table" behind your listening chair or sofa, OR if stereo and only using a chair - a pair of side tables to the left and right of the chair.

Figure about a 2 foot distance to the closest "edge" of the driver (or closest driver) - the closer, the better.
This is a little off topic, but Scott I guess you say this from experience.
I'm about to work out the box and placement of a single EBS 18" sub for 12-60 Hz, mostly for HT.

Do you have any links on theory or experience of the relationship between closeness and (apart from 1 & 2) greater tactile sensation?

Thanks!
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Old 1st April 2013, 08:02 PM   #28
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by otto88 View Post
This is a little off topic, but Scott I guess you say this from experience.
I'm about to work out the box and placement of a single EBS 18" sub for 12-60 Hz, mostly for HT.

Do you have any links on theory or experience of the relationship between closeness and (apart from 1 & 2) greater tactile sensation?

Thanks!
Yes, from experience - but there is also a fair bit of research on this subject. (..I think JohnK at one time had something on near-field bass, but I don't think it discussed greater tactile sensation.)

As for tactile sensation, just personal experience. There probably is research on this from at least divergent fields of interest (..almost certainly with respect to "blasts" from ordinance), but I've never looked for it.
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Old 1st April 2013, 08:10 PM   #29
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_E_Janowitz View Post
In any system like this I would be working with DSP for EQ, crossover, and time alignment. This is something some people shy away from and want to go with a passive system.
Actually this is one area that is over-looked by your competitors.

Specifically relating to the addition of a 2nd voice coil.

One coil can be "full range" - or integrated into a passive system, allowing integration up into the midrange and utilizing the more highly "prized" amplifier. (ie. a more "purist" approach.)

The 2nd coil can be driven by a more powerful amplifier to compensate for pressure loss, and perhaps make various corrections - which could include room eq. for a listening position.

Sort of "having your cake and eating it too".
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Last edited by ScottG; 1st April 2013 at 08:34 PM.
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Old 3rd April 2013, 03:15 AM   #30
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Smile higher up: 15 LO vs TD15M

Hi John

To shift focus to upper bass and lower midrange, and understand the differences between your AE drivers better:

I'm soon to do an active dipole system, running 15 inch AEs, either the LO or the TDM, from about 100 up to say 550 Hz.
[LIST][*]The TDM is 5 dB more efficient, but being active and not having a need for volume more than 110 dB, either should be fine. [*](If my memory is right) both are underhung and have copper sleeves.[*]The TDM has less Xmax (6 mm) than the LO (9 mm), but both should have enough, as not being used for lower bass.

Does the TDM also have cloth surrounds?

Which would you recommend?

And if I were to run up to say 1200 Hz, would the better option - smoother response? - be the TDM?

TIA!
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