I don't recommend it. I have not heard the Raal, but my true ribbon is so weak below 3kHz. No balls. The TPL-150 is better between 1.2-4kHz, but 1.5-1.8khz is a terrible place to put a crossover point, as I think zmyrna meant a few posts ago. I tested it yesterday and it is so true. For me, true ribbons are great as supertweeters. But I want something with more "balls" up to 4-7Khz, like an AMT or a compression driver.
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Studiotech: I forgot one driver in the 3rd system. Correcting:
"I am playing with the minidsp 4x10hd with three different setups, playing in mono.
3-way #A
12" JBL 2204H 80-450Hz
2" Radian 750-8 in 50cm deep horn 450Hz-14kHz
Transmission Audio true ribbon 7kHz-30kHz
Impression: Sounds like it is happening live at a concert. Best is gentle jazz solo artists, and classic rock work too. But I feel strained by the subtle harshness of the 2" compression driver. I only notice harshness because the TPL is so clean and can compare A/B. Otherwise I would not have a clue that the compression drivers coloured the sound to that degree. Note: it required a lot of fiddling with the EQ.
vs.
3-way #B
12" JBL 2204H 80-1000Hz
Beyma TPL-150 1000Hz-16kHz
Transmission Audio true ribbon 7kHz-30kHz
Impression: Very nice and true, but lacking in midrange detail. Not as involving. Live feeling is gone. The JBL woofer is not a good enough midrange. JBL E-120/12P80ND might be a little better, but I think I would prefer something else between 500-1000Hz than a big woofer. It is such an important range that requires a more detailed driver. I now think the human hearing is too sensitive around 1000Hz to have a XO point there. One plus is that it works with any kind of material. The AMT swallows any sharp sound. Deftones early albums sound very listenable.
vs.
4-way
12" JBL 2204H 80-450Hz
2" Radian 750-8 (760PB) in 50cm deep horn 450Hz-2.5kHz
Beyma TPL-150 2.5kHz-16kHz
Transmission Audio true ribbon 7kHz-30kHz
Impression: The crossover points kills the sound a little. Best would be to stick with the first setup or invent a bass AMT that can cover the same area as the compression driver, i.e. 500-15kHz. I am not sure I want to listen to compression drivers all the time, since my ears feel strained after listening to them for a while. I still have a little live feeling, but it sounds muffled. Needs a lot of tweeking I guess to make a 4-way work properly. Too early to tell."
Conclusion: For now I will not use the TPL-150 for while. Not until I make a better 4-way XO. Or finish inventing the DIY bass AMT driver, which hopefully will make the TPL-150 superfluous. The bass AMT would then cover 300Hz to 5-10khz, followed by the true ribbon supertweeter. Woofer selection will be less critical.
"I am playing with the minidsp 4x10hd with three different setups, playing in mono.
3-way #A
12" JBL 2204H 80-450Hz
2" Radian 750-8 in 50cm deep horn 450Hz-14kHz
Transmission Audio true ribbon 7kHz-30kHz
Impression: Sounds like it is happening live at a concert. Best is gentle jazz solo artists, and classic rock work too. But I feel strained by the subtle harshness of the 2" compression driver. I only notice harshness because the TPL is so clean and can compare A/B. Otherwise I would not have a clue that the compression drivers coloured the sound to that degree. Note: it required a lot of fiddling with the EQ.
vs.
3-way #B
12" JBL 2204H 80-1000Hz
Beyma TPL-150 1000Hz-16kHz
Transmission Audio true ribbon 7kHz-30kHz
Impression: Very nice and true, but lacking in midrange detail. Not as involving. Live feeling is gone. The JBL woofer is not a good enough midrange. JBL E-120/12P80ND might be a little better, but I think I would prefer something else between 500-1000Hz than a big woofer. It is such an important range that requires a more detailed driver. I now think the human hearing is too sensitive around 1000Hz to have a XO point there. One plus is that it works with any kind of material. The AMT swallows any sharp sound. Deftones early albums sound very listenable.
vs.
4-way
12" JBL 2204H 80-450Hz
2" Radian 750-8 (760PB) in 50cm deep horn 450Hz-2.5kHz
Beyma TPL-150 2.5kHz-16kHz
Transmission Audio true ribbon 7kHz-30kHz
Impression: The crossover points kills the sound a little. Best would be to stick with the first setup or invent a bass AMT that can cover the same area as the compression driver, i.e. 500-15kHz. I am not sure I want to listen to compression drivers all the time, since my ears feel strained after listening to them for a while. I still have a little live feeling, but it sounds muffled. Needs a lot of tweeking I guess to make a 4-way work properly. Too early to tell."
Conclusion: For now I will not use the TPL-150 for while. Not until I make a better 4-way XO. Or finish inventing the DIY bass AMT driver, which hopefully will make the TPL-150 superfluous. The bass AMT would then cover 300Hz to 5-10khz, followed by the true ribbon supertweeter. Woofer selection will be less critical.
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just to drop a line 
I'm still looking this tread with high interest, but have order pair of satori 16P-8 couple day's ago...there is sime price drop at rabu acousitic on those drivers...
hope I will be able to made some nice speaker with this combination...it will take some time to build it...but...
(thanks everyone for advices)
I'm still looking this tread with high interest, but have order pair of satori 16P-8 couple day's ago...there is sime price drop at rabu acousitic on those drivers...
hope I will be able to made some nice speaker with this combination...it will take some time to build it...but...
(thanks everyone for advices
)Greg,
Everyone raves about the Raals. They must be really good.
But I really don't want to spend over 1k for a pair of drivers.
As I said, if I think it might be necessary, I will give it a try with the founteks.
They are €30-40 each.
Rewind,
A big AMT is a good thing.
But Neo8s may work perfect for your case too.
It is only about €120 each.
Everyone raves about the Raals. They must be really good.
But I really don't want to spend over 1k for a pair of drivers.
As I said, if I think it might be necessary, I will give it a try with the founteks.
They are €30-40 each.
Rewind,
A big AMT is a good thing.
But Neo8s may work perfect for your case too.
It is only about €120 each.
zmryna: Yes, I am tempted to take the easy route and just order me a pair.
The founteks should be good too. True Ribbons are the best supertweeters I have heard. Even a cheap one would be good since the design is so simple.
Weak points compared to the well made RAALs could be the transformer. Right now I am using a DIY Duelund resistor 0.5 ohm 10-15W, that I made from a pencil, to run transformerless. I cross it high, i.e. above 3-4kHz, because the amp is very warm when I cross it any lower. Then most solid state amps should manage it. Don't except high volume when running transformerless.
Other weak points could be too weak magnets, too large gap between magnet and foil, the choice and design of alu foil, but you might find a better replacement that fits. I doubt it should be a problem.
I was asking advice from StigErik who has a giant system with the 2 meter tall Bohlender RD75 and eight 21" Beyma. He recommended the RD75 above all else. He crosses them from 200Hz and up. He is also considering a ribbon supertweeter.
The founteks should be good too. True Ribbons are the best supertweeters I have heard. Even a cheap one would be good since the design is so simple.
Weak points compared to the well made RAALs could be the transformer. Right now I am using a DIY Duelund resistor 0.5 ohm 10-15W, that I made from a pencil, to run transformerless. I cross it high, i.e. above 3-4kHz, because the amp is very warm when I cross it any lower. Then most solid state amps should manage it. Don't except high volume when running transformerless.
Other weak points could be too weak magnets, too large gap between magnet and foil, the choice and design of alu foil, but you might find a better replacement that fits. I doubt it should be a problem.
I was asking advice from StigErik who has a giant system with the 2 meter tall Bohlender RD75 and eight 21" Beyma. He recommended the RD75 above all else. He crosses them from 200Hz and up. He is also considering a ribbon supertweeter.
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Check the Neo8-S, stronger magnets, same pleated edge to diaphragm as the Neo10. Plays lowers than normal Neo8. Used with maybe 4 per side, they could get pretty loud. I'm only using one per side and they go plenty loud for use as a nearfield monitor.
Greg
Hey Generic George, I think you are getting something special from Rick @ Selah, right? I've seen the Audiocircle posts...
If I'm on the right track, we would love built pictures once you are done.
Greg
Very sharp of you.
Yes, I'm getting Delmond Won, who does the cabinets for Philharmonic Audio to do the cabinets. I've attached some of his preliminary renders.
They're going to have a light mappa burl as the front veneer.
Attachments
Damn George! Kick ***.
What DSP?
I'm quite pleased with Delmond's design. I loath your typical box speaker and wanted something that would look as good as it should sound.
It will be using the MiniDSP, 4x10 version. I've got an Emotiva XPA-5 for 4 of the amp channels and may pick up a 500 wpc class D amp for the woofer sections.
It's not going to be finished anytime soon though and we still need to settle on a design for the center channel.
Hi. it's been a while..sorry
I have buy satori 16P-8 and build some test cabinets for it...
something like 19L, closed...
my biggest problem is that I don't have reference system
so I can't compare any of those speakers with anything
if I have some fault in sound I cant say it's because of loudspeakers
or because of amps
or preamp
or room
so I cant share any impression about those drivers
whel I can but...
any way
here is my system
source - PC with audiotrak prodigy LT 5.1 sound card
analog out to DCX296
6 analog output go to marantz receiver SR5005 which I use as preamp
then i have mini aleph for twiter, aleph 30 for mids, and icepower asx125 for bas
big loudspeakers are 2904/7000, 18W8545, 21W8555
small loudspeakers are raal and satori 16P
all the wires are some chip cables...like 1$/meter
i like the sound of big ones
high and mids are great but have problem with bas
thay are based on edgar and tony gee eveII which is 2.5 design
the bas from 2.5 combo doesn't have attack...it just doesn't sound right...
I try to play with settings on DCX and play them as 3way which improves bas...
have to play with it more...
small satori and raal sound nice too...
thay have beter space (depth...)
again problem with bas, as it don't have much of it...
but it could be because of bad placement in space (you can see how i place them, as I don't have stands for them)
and I play them only like 30houres so thay are not even brake in
I have try second order L-R at 3.5kHZ but that didn't sound right...at least for my ears
so I place 4 order L-R on raal...it sound better...
I haven't made any measurements as lately I don't have much free time to play with those things
hope I will get some time soon
will post back
here are some pictures of the mess in my living room
my girlfriend gonna kill me one day, or trow all this over balcony
I have buy satori 16P-8 and build some test cabinets for it...
something like 19L, closed...
my biggest problem is that I don't have reference system
so I can't compare any of those speakers with anything
if I have some fault in sound I cant say it's because of loudspeakers
or because of amps
or preamp
or room
so I cant share any impression about those drivers
whel I can but...
any way
here is my system
source - PC with audiotrak prodigy LT 5.1 sound card
analog out to DCX296
6 analog output go to marantz receiver SR5005 which I use as preamp
then i have mini aleph for twiter, aleph 30 for mids, and icepower asx125 for bas
big loudspeakers are 2904/7000, 18W8545, 21W8555
small loudspeakers are raal and satori 16P
all the wires are some chip cables...like 1$/meter
i like the sound of big ones
high and mids are great but have problem with bas
thay are based on edgar and tony gee eveII which is 2.5 design
the bas from 2.5 combo doesn't have attack...it just doesn't sound right...
I try to play with settings on DCX and play them as 3way which improves bas...
have to play with it more...
small satori and raal sound nice too...
thay have beter space (depth...)
again problem with bas, as it don't have much of it...
but it could be because of bad placement in space (you can see how i place them, as I don't have stands for them)
and I play them only like 30houres so thay are not even brake in
I have try second order L-R at 3.5kHZ but that didn't sound right...at least for my ears
so I place 4 order L-R on raal...it sound better...
I haven't made any measurements as lately I don't have much free time to play with those things
hope I will get some time soon
will post back
here are some pictures of the mess in my living room
my girlfriend gonna kill me one day, or trow all this over balcony
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They look very nice especially the big ones.Hi. it's been a while..sorry
I have buy satori 16P-8 and build some test cabinets for it...
something like 19L, closed...
my biggest problem is that I don't have reference system
so I can't compare any of those speakers with anything
if I have some fault in sound I cant say it's because of loudspeakers
or because of amps
or preamp
or room
so I cant share any impression about those drivers
whel I can but...
any way
here is my system
source - PC with audiotrak prodigy LT 5.1 sound card
analog out to DCX296
6 analog output go to marantz receiver SR5005 which I use as preamp
then i have mini aleph for twiter, aleph 30 for mids, and icepower asx125 for bas
big loudspeakers are 2904/7000, 18W8545, 21W8555
small loudspeakers are raal and satori 16P
all the wires are some chip cables...like 1$/meter
i like the sound of big ones
high and mids are great but have problem with bas
thay are based on edgar and tony gee eveII which is 2.5 design
the bas from 2.5 combo doesn't have attack...it just doesn't sound right...
I try to play with settings on DCX and play them as 3way which improves bas...
have to play with it more...
small satori and raal sound nice too...
thay have beter space (depth...)
again problem with bas, as it don't have much of it...
but it could be because of bad placement in space (you can see how i place them, as I don't have stands for them)
and I play them only like 30houres so thay are not even brake in
I have try second order L-R at 3.5kHZ but that didn't sound right...at least for my ears
so I place 4 order L-R on raal...it sound better...
I haven't made any measurements as lately I don't have much free time to play with those things
hope I will get some time soon
will post back
here are some pictures of the mess in my living room
my girlfriend gonna kill me one day, or trow all this over balcony
I dont know the power amp but with the good treble and mid with both speakers IMHO it sounds like not enough current from the power amp.
The Dynospeak mid and bass are very current hungry. They are more than adequate to balance the 7000 tweeter or RAAL. I prefer minmalist passive cross over. You adjust the tweeter with T pad till you get a good sounding mix. Then see if you can repeat with DEQ2496. Must use capacitor in to RAAL in any cross over.
Where has the RAAL got to as a comparison with other ribbon and dome tweeters. Is it really still better or have the others caught up at a better price.
With so many £40 dome tweeters around, that really do sound excellent with high quality applications, the use of exotic marterials is not justified. I bet the SEAS 27TDF, Dayton 28 series and many others are indistinguishable from the much more costly Be domes in all practical systems. Nobody I know uses astronomically DIY priced domed tweeters with Be or silk domes
With so many £40 dome tweeters around, that really do sound excellent with high quality applications, the use of exotic marterials is not justified. I bet the SEAS 27TDF, Dayton 28 series and many others are indistinguishable from the much more costly Be domes in all practical systems. Nobody I know uses astronomically DIY priced domed tweeters with Be or silk domes
Sadly RAALs really are that good. It really is a pity that the 70-20 is OEM only, since it has fewer implementation issues than the others in the range and is more practical for DIY. If I was them I think I'd discontinue the 140-15 and the 70-10 and just make the 70-20 for both OEM and DIY. Now that I actually have a pair here, my expectation (bias?) that the SB ring tweeter is great for the money is confirmed though. Very clean indeed- presumably the Satori version is even better and is still reasonably priced.
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