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Old 11th March 2013, 12:10 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by fas42 View Post
Cheers, Alex ...

I would suggest that people who haven't done so, go check what Pano actually described in the link I gave in the first post -- in essence he was able to walk almost completely around a front facing horn speaker, and even directly in front of it he was unable to mentally connect the soundscape he was hearing with the driver directly facing him: this is the level of "invisibility" I'm talking about ...

Frank
G'day Frank,

Good, then we are on the same page.
The experience is memorable and I have it everyday in my own lounge room.
Which is exactly why I'm so persistent and emphatic about EnABL.
Ever made a vintage two way box speaker disappear sonically? I did.

Cheers,

Alex

Last edited by Alex from Oz; 11th March 2013 at 12:27 PM.
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Old 11th March 2013, 12:21 PM   #22
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Hear's a description from wlowes describing his experience
EnABL - Listening impressions & techniques

And this after adding some more EnABL to the boxes
EnABL - Listening impressions & techniques

Cheers,

Alex

Last edited by Alex from Oz; 11th March 2013 at 12:33 PM. Reason: Added second link
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Old 11th March 2013, 12:26 PM   #23
fas42 is offline fas42  Australia
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Originally Posted by CopperTop View Post
You can even create a surround sound illusion from two speakers using DSP, and I think I've even done something similar accidentally when messing up the phase correction with my active crossover DSP. The effect can be a very convincing 'ambience' from two speakers, but at the cost of destroying the intentional dryness of a recording. However, without knowing how it should sound, the listener might think they've struck audio gold, only to find it an unsatisfying system ultimately. And I presume that by playing with room treatments, dipoles, open baffle speakers, side-firing woofers and all those tricks, it might be possible to create some sort of illusion without DSP, but again, would it necessarily be 'right' in the long run?
My experience has been that no matter how dry the recording engineers believe they've made a recording, that still sufficient acoustic clues have been captured, and come through, if the system is "transparent" enough.

The 'rightness' of having invisible speakers is always open to debate, but when it is done without tricks apart from optimising the system then I've never found it to be anything but extremely satisfying ...

Frank
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Old 11th March 2013, 12:37 PM   #24
fas42 is offline fas42  Australia
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Originally Posted by Alex from Oz View Post
Hear's a description from wlowes describing his experience
EnABL - Listening impressions & techniques

Cheers,

Alex
Looks good ... but note that he did major work weeding out all the major deficiencies of the speakers as acquired. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have got those results if the only fix or tweak was using EnABL.

That said, he's a man after my own heart ... I've done the same type of thing several times, but ... didn't use EnABL ...... sorry ,

Frank
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Old 11th March 2013, 12:43 PM   #25
lolo is offline lolo  France
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with the right recording it happens sometimes with the Orions, not often enough though and when it doesn't the tweeters are guilty. the flooder does is very well for some recordings too, so does ambio.
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Old 11th March 2013, 12:43 PM   #26
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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is there any physics behind this EnABL?
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Old 11th March 2013, 12:45 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by fas42 View Post
The 'rightness' of having invisible speakers is always open to debate, but when it is done without tricks apart from optimising the system then I've never found it to be anything but extremely satisfying ...
Occasionally I read statements that suggest that stereo is not capable of capturing all the information of a live recording, and even that would presumably be from a single listening position. If this is the case (and I don't claim to know!), any invisible speaker experience would have to be some sort of trick wouldn't it?

Last edited by CopperTop; 11th March 2013 at 12:48 PM.
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Old 11th March 2013, 12:52 PM   #28
fas42 is offline fas42  Australia
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stereo itself is a trick
Exactly. For me, the goal is for the system to "trick" me, because then I get the most enjoyment from listening to the music -- I'm not doing this audio thing as an intellectual pastime, to "understand" the deep inner needs of the sound engineer, you know ... !! ,

Frank
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Old 11th March 2013, 12:55 PM   #29
AllenB is offline AllenB  Australia
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Originally Posted by CopperTop View Post
If you found your speakers turning invisible at some point, does it automatically mean that they were 'right'? I think we can dial up some pretty convincing illusions on demand if we play with home theatre surround sound,
It is more about making the cabinets disappear. Clean stereo should give the same effect. Of course you could hide the cabinets by using a complex array of sources either by HT or by 'flooding', but I think this is missing the point.

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Originally Posted by fas42 View Post
Looks good ... but note that he did major work weeding out all the major deficiencies of the speakers as acquired. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have got those results if the only fix or tweak was using EnABL.
I think so too.
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Old 11th March 2013, 01:06 PM   #30
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Exactly. For me, the goal is for the system to "trick" me, because then I get the most enjoyment from listening to the music -- I'm not doing this audio thing as an intellectual pastime, to "understand" the deep inner needs of the sound engineer, you know ... !!
But what I'd like to know is whether a convincing illusion derived from one recording should be treated as some sort of triumph, because on the next recording it will sound poor. Like passing a recording through a 'voice throwing' equaliser setting. Maybe it sounds eerily realistic on a dry piano or solo voice, but terrible on an orchestral recording in a concert hall.

If it could be shown that a stereo recording simply cannot encode a true invisible-speaker experience, then such an experience must, by definition, be a trick, and therefore have no more merit than a Dolby Prologic surround sound system.
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