G'day Frank,
Good, then we are on the same page.
The experience is memorable and I have it everyday in my own lounge room.
Which is exactly why I'm so persistent and emphatic about EnABL.
Ever made a vintage two way box speaker disappear sonically? I did.
Cheers,
Alex
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Hear's a description from wlowes describing his experience
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...ng-impressions-techniques-20.html#post3384398
And this after adding some more EnABL to the boxes
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...ng-impressions-techniques-20.html#post3386849
Cheers,
Alex
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...ng-impressions-techniques-20.html#post3384398
And this after adding some more EnABL to the boxes
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...ng-impressions-techniques-20.html#post3386849
Cheers,
Alex
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My experience has been that no matter how dry the recording engineers believe they've made a recording, that still sufficient acoustic clues have been captured, and come through, if the system is "transparent" enough.
The 'rightness' of having invisible speakers is always open to debate, but when it is done without tricks apart from optimising the system then I've never found it to be anything but extremely satisfying ...
Frank
Looks good ... but note that he did major work weeding out all the major deficiencies of the speakers as acquired. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have got those results if the only fix or tweak was using EnABL.
That said, he's a man after my own heart ... I've done the same type of thing several times, but ... didn't use EnABL ...... sorry
, Frank
Occasionally I read statements that suggest that stereo is not capable of capturing all the information of a live recording, and even that would presumably be from a single listening position. If this is the case (and I don't claim to know!), any invisible speaker experience would have to be some sort of trick wouldn't it?
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Exactly. For me, the goal is for the system to "trick" me, because then I get the most enjoyment from listening to the music -- I'm not doing this audio thing as an intellectual pastime, to "understand" the deep inner needs of the sound engineer, you know ... !!
, Frank
It is more about making the cabinets disappear. Clean stereo should give the same effect. Of course you could hide the cabinets by using a complex array of sources either by HT or by 'flooding', but I think this is missing the point.
I think so too.
But what I'd like to know is whether a convincing illusion derived from one recording should be treated as some sort of triumph, because on the next recording it will sound poor. Like passing a recording through a 'voice throwing' equaliser setting. Maybe it sounds eerily realistic on a dry piano or solo voice, but terrible on an orchestral recording in a concert hall.
If it could be shown that a stereo recording simply cannot encode a true invisible-speaker experience, then such an experience must, by definition, be a trick, and therefore have no more merit than a Dolby Prologic surround sound system.
Well, the good news is that if you get invisible speakers on one recording then it works on all recordings. At least, IME.
The "trick" ultimately is nothing more than getting the speakers to reproduce super clean sound, no anomalies or irritating distortions to distract you. Which, for me, is a system issue: getting the whole chain working right.
The encoding in the signal is nothing magical, it's just getting all that low level information through, lowering the noise floor as some people call it. Then, your head does the decoding for you, the necessary DSP so to speak ... automatically.
Frank
Here is my list of what makes Loudspeakers "disappear":
According to my experience and the recent speaker projects, the following criteria (in arbitrary order) are important in order to create the sensation of disappearing speakers:
- absence of very early reflections => distance to large objects
- minimized diffraction on the speaker itself.
- no discontinuities in the directivity index/sound power response, which equals to a smooth off axis behavior. Constant directivity is not a requirement.
- wide dispersion.
in addition:
- wet recordings
- live sounding rooms
- minimized distortion, noise, venting sounds
And a certain type of equalization for omnipolar or other wide dispersion speakers, which I will publish soon.
According to my experience and the recent speaker projects, the following criteria (in arbitrary order) are important in order to create the sensation of disappearing speakers:
- absence of very early reflections => distance to large objects
- minimized diffraction on the speaker itself.
- no discontinuities in the directivity index/sound power response, which equals to a smooth off axis behavior. Constant directivity is not a requirement.
- wide dispersion.
in addition:
- wet recordings
- live sounding rooms
- minimized distortion, noise, venting sounds
And a certain type of equalization for omnipolar or other wide dispersion speakers, which I will publish soon.
Can You link to thar summary?
IMHO - it's all about lowering the IACC by means of crosstalk cancelling or a certain pattern of the reflected sound, and elimination of the floor reflection
I've heard it..
I experienced it at Taves 2011 with a large multiway.. All the drivers were Accuton and crossover was hi quality.. A couple of guys in the front row had heads drooped and looked like they might cry..
I'll never foget it..
From my listening experiences this is prevalent on many systems. Some have more than others but the accuton system had it in the nth degree..
Well, it is nothing new at all. But a better description/explanation of what I have been using since a while.interesting
Fas42 you said:
N.B. Note the bold: not merely 'invisible' from your normal listening seat.
This was what Pano said:
Is this what you really experience from all recordings you listen to?
From Pano's quote, maybe he was only talking about a mono speaker.
How does it work in stereo? If the recording is of an orchestra in front of you with percussion at the back and the audience sounds all around you, when you walk around the back of the speaker, do you, instead, hear the percussion near to you at the front and the audience in the distance? I supect the answer is no.
Alternatively, do you hear the orchestra laid out in front of you the same, wherever you wander in your room? Violins on the left, cellos on the right etc. ? Again, I suspect the answer is no.
So while it may be a memorably disorientating (nauseating?) experience, it isn't an 'accurate' one. And if it's not accurate, then why regard it as any better than your home theatre's surround sound?
N.B. Note the bold: not merely 'invisible' from your normal listening seat.
This was what Pano said:
Is this what you really experience from all recordings you listen to?
From Pano's quote, maybe he was only talking about a mono speaker.
How does it work in stereo? If the recording is of an orchestra in front of you with percussion at the back and the audience sounds all around you, when you walk around the back of the speaker, do you, instead, hear the percussion near to you at the front and the audience in the distance? I supect the answer is no.
Alternatively, do you hear the orchestra laid out in front of you the same, wherever you wander in your room? Violins on the left, cellos on the right etc. ? Again, I suspect the answer is no.
So while it may be a memorably disorientating (nauseating?) experience, it isn't an 'accurate' one. And if it's not accurate, then why regard it as any better than your home theatre's surround sound?
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My speakers do this,
and even better with my eyes closed
Seriously, I've found this ability to disappear and recreate the recording environment only with hardconed drivers.
My Visaton 3way AL130+Ke25SC does this invisibility act very good and my Accuton/Raal/Alcone speaker even better, especially with good recordings I get completely emerged.
I've also some softconed speakers but they don't give me that feeling of being there.
and even better with my eyes closed
Seriously, I've found this ability to disappear and recreate the recording environment only with hardconed drivers.
My Visaton 3way AL130+Ke25SC does this invisibility act very good and my Accuton/Raal/Alcone speaker even better, especially with good recordings I get completely emerged.
I've also some softconed speakers but they don't give me that feeling of being there.
coincidentally my AL130 and ribbon have a spookily real effect too (depending alot on recordings) where as the AL130 and G20SC does not, or at least to a lesser degree.
Perhaps the phase response of the ribbon contributes? Or the hornWG that helps by limiting spurious vertical reflections?
I found that padding the ribbons down an extra 2db, whilst initially dark sounding, removed any sense of the ribbon shouting 'here i am' and they end up sounding beautifully relaxed.
So perhaps a shallow shelf toward the HF has an impact? Since with HF in nature does show a loss with distance and diffusion.
Im with Coppertop on the stereo part. A 'holographic' image will not remain the same with a change in listener position.
Perhaps the phase response of the ribbon contributes? Or the hornWG that helps by limiting spurious vertical reflections?
I found that padding the ribbons down an extra 2db, whilst initially dark sounding, removed any sense of the ribbon shouting 'here i am' and they end up sounding beautifully relaxed.
So perhaps a shallow shelf toward the HF has an impact? Since with HF in nature does show a loss with distance and diffusion.
Im with Coppertop on the stereo part. A 'holographic' image will not remain the same with a change in listener position.
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