The horn has a overall length with the adapter, 'till the throat, of 96cm , and 90cm mouth diameter.
I listened music yesterday just for a short while. First impressions are good, it seems to sound natural, very precise and controlled. Will tell more later.
the dip at ~ 150hz is a mistery to me......
I listened music yesterday just for a short while. First impressions are good, it seems to sound natural, very precise and controlled. Will tell more later.
the dip at ~ 150hz is a mistery to me......
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Try different genres of music. I am sure it sounds great on solo trumpet or violin, but I wonder if the 555 can handle complex music with many instruments, or compressed rock, metal and electronica.
Maybe too early to ask, but what are your plans if the 555 sound better in the 150-1200hz range than the 12P80ND? Would be a shame to use the beyma between 80 and 150Hz. You could use your old beyma 12" that produce lower bass.
Maybe too early to ask, but what are your plans if the 555 sound better in the 150-1200hz range than the 12P80ND? Would be a shame to use the beyma between 80 and 150Hz. You could use your old beyma 12" that produce lower bass.
So, how do we reach 80Hz with the Qtc=0.15 Beyma 12P80ND while delivering excellent transient response?
1) Reasonable volume (2+ cu ft) well stuffed sealed cabinet with electronic equalization and electronic Xover. Probably best. Simply beat the 12P80ND to the desired SPL shape.
2) Small volume (1.2 cu ft) with on-wall absorption material plus a small aperodic vent. Allows passive Xover option.
3) Some type of transmission line or tapered tube?
The Beyma factory SPL plot shows a break-up type bump-up above 1.6kHz.
1) Reasonable volume (2+ cu ft) well stuffed sealed cabinet with electronic equalization and electronic Xover. Probably best. Simply beat the 12P80ND to the desired SPL shape.
2) Small volume (1.2 cu ft) with on-wall absorption material plus a small aperodic vent. Allows passive Xover option.
3) Some type of transmission line or tapered tube?
The Beyma factory SPL plot shows a break-up type bump-up above 1.6kHz.
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Alternative 3 is probably the better one, especially for transient response. A MLTL or TQWT.
With that motor strength, probably 1 cu ft sealed would do, and then beat it into submission with EQ.
It is my understanding that those guys have now swapped the 12P80ND for the Beyma Liberty 8, thinking it's the best midwoofer ever!
I'm just sayin.....
Angelo,
In your pursuit of the ultimate, and considering that you think the 12P80Nd is half way there, you may want to look into the Beyma Liberty 8 as well.
For your benefit, I have translated a few posts from hififorum.nu where this driver is being mentioned:
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Ingvar.Ahlberg Posted - 2012/05/10 : 20:34:26
Here we have some fun news!
For those of you who are interested in the classic, fantastic JBL/Altec drivers, you probably long for the JBL E120, which went out of production many years ago. An even better replacement driver has been manufactured by Beyma for quite some time, but has exclusively been sold in the States, until now.
Beyma's fantastic Liberty 12" is almost a direct replacement of the E120, has a couple of advantages compared to the original, lower Fs, higher Pe, smoother frequency response but somewhat worse sensitivity, only 102dB/W.
If you are thinking about building a horn or a TQWT or perhaps a traditional studio monitor, this driver is pretty close to the holy grail.
Beyma Liberty 12" Guitar Speakers - Beyma Liberty 12" guitar speaker - Beyma Liberty 300 watt 12" guitar speaker for all high quality guitar applications. Beyma Liberty and other Beyma 12" speakers here.
BR Ingvar
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Circlomanen Posted - 2012/05/11 : 21:58:41
These drivers seem to be for people who know that hifi has to contain at least 90% air guitar and built-in protection against seated listening.
Darn how nice these are! RLK, BIB, MLTL (I almost said gag reflex but I won't) should work nicely. I think it would be difficult to stop that driver from playing pure music. At 102 dB/w/m though, you can't live too close to a MW transmitter.
BR Johannes
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Circlomanen Posted - 2012/05/12 : 22:14:41
A Hemi small block is not always so rational or politically correct in today's environmental thinking, but damn is it a lot of fun! A Beyma Liberty 12 may not be a wonder of bland correctness and it is not going to win "The Driver of the Year" at CES, but it can play music in a way that makes corpses wanna dance. "F*ck measurement data, let's dance" kinda attitude...
I'm very curios in this driver. So much fun, so little time! How is one supposed to keep up with this constant stream of fun drivers in these times of technical innovations?!?!
BR Johannes
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Wing Zero Posted - 2012/05/16 : 19:59:50
Liberty 12 seems extremely interesting. Hope someone will take the initiative to resuscitate E-130 as well, or why not the complete E-series. Without a doubt my favorite line of loudspeaker drivers.
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Ingvar.Ahlberg Posted - 2012/06/11 : 20:31:39
As you can see, they have arrived, the E-120 replica Liberty 8 from Beyma.
In general similar parameters and construction, Liberty 8 has a different accordion surround with a higher compliance, folded thrice instead of twice for a significantly lower Fs (37 versus 60 Hz), and an even more powerful engine. Almost same sensitivity, 102 versus 103 dB/W, lower Qes and Qts, as well as significantly greater Qms. Bl is a very nice 21.3.
The data sheet claims the weight is 10 kg, haven't weighed it but it feels heavier. I removed 12G40 from a pair of QW-1 mk2 that are due to be repainted, they weigh 8 kg and these are a lot heavier.
What to do with them then? Is it going to be what Circlomanen wants, real horns, perhaps RLK? TQWT tuned to 30 Hz? Or shall the simple-minded man from Kungsbacka come up with more silly-type boxes?
BR Ingvar
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Ingvar.Ahlberg Posted - 2012/07/08 19:04:19
OK, new residents in da house.
I’ll stop looking for new woofers now. This is it, at least for me.
BR Ingvar
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Ingvar.Ahlberg Posted - 2012/07/09
No they are meant for traditional Swedish f
lk music as they do voices totally magically, perhaps Hugo Alfven, or a bit smoky New York jazz on some rainy Manhattan back street.If you were to listen to rock through these small ones, you would have no one else than yourself to blame, I don't think you could stop.
I have stopped searching for a woofer.
BR Ingvar
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Ingvar.Ahlberg Posted - 2012/07/09 : 20:51:11
Johannes! I’m cured, the gag reflex syndrome is gone!
This is it.
This woofer is here to stay; the quest for the holy grail is over.
BR Ingvar
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Circlomanen Posted - 2012/07/09 : 23:05:47
Pheeeeww!!!! I got a bit worried there for a second, but I see that you have come back in style! That looks illegally fun!!!
And I who considered the 12P80Nd as fun once, oh why are you doing this to me!?! How could I ever explain to Malin that I now have to buy more woofers all of a sudden??? Legendary drivers for legendarily pleasurable playback!
Expect me inviting myself over to yours soon. I’ll bring booze, you’ll serve up the rock n roll?!
BR Johannes
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R1 T Posted 2012/07/14 00:27:45
Cannot contain myself from blogging a bit. Just listening to Marillion (Less is More). Damn how clean and well-behaved these speakers are sounding, detailed and dynamic without anything standing out. Even the wife came in to have a listen for quite some time. “It sounds good”. A more positive comment can probably not be had.
BR Åke
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Circlomanen sted - 2012/08/01 : 22:47:28
Thank you Ingvar for the music and the very nice and informative chat!
Re the Beyma Liberty-8!!!!!
OMG! Today they are unique in many ways. They are modern relatives of legendary drivers created by people with know-how and experience, far beyond such dull requirements as economic profitability and attractive parameters. It is strangely enough the world’s best woofer, although a lot of people cannot see it. Low Xmax, low Qts, overhung magnet system – with all its advantages!!! It is difficult not to use some of the proceeds from having sold the boat to buy 8 of these. Malin muttered something threatening about divorce and moving out – “live by yourself with your woofers in your bachelor pad….” Sounds hardly threatening to my ears....
I have to say I’m convinced that these go far beyond ”nice”. It is seldom I get as impressed by a driver as I am with these. It is like standing next to an idling Top Fuel drag racer and feeling in your whole body the enormous energy that is lurking under the cylinder heads. You can guess what’s there without the engine ever doing more than 1200 rpm.
Ingvar said SEK 2,050 incl. VAT... A very disturbing figure since that is extremely inexpensive for an overhung magnet system (underhung voice coil), ultra-light cone and a Bl of 21.3.
BR Johannes
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Ingvar.Ahlberg Posted - 2012/08/02 : 19:41:47
The E120/Liberty8 retails for SEK 2,300, extraordinary value-for-money. Still not going to be a large-volume driver in Sweden, unfortunately since more people should try it.
There is a lot in what Johannes is saying, is this perhaps the best woofer in the world? I am not referring to the technical parameters now, just the way it sounds.
BR Ingvar
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Circlomanen Posted - 2012/08/03 : 16:18:37
4 Beyma Liberty-8 in a 160 cm L23 TH with SD/2 as S2 and 4 X SD as S4!!! (if speaking Hornresp lingo is allowed)
That would be something!!!
It is a bit tragic when the sensitivity creeps down towards 107 dB/w/m in the bass range... Have to tweak that a bit. The low Fs makes it a bit ”back heavy” if tuned too high.
BR Johannes
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Circlomanen Posted 2012/08/05 21:45:41
I like all ML-TQWP I have heard. They do a lot of things significantly better than gag reflex. In particular, they are - strangely enough - more homogenous and coherent somehow.
I do not think you should change a lot unless you hear something you think is wrong. If you want a significant improvement, then back-loaded horns is the name of the game. A BIB for a Beyma Liberty-8 is not in any way a small and discrete affair. Roughly estimated, you’ll end up with 200 cm tall, 40 cm wide and 55 cm deep – internal measurements.
BR Johannes
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R1 T Posted- 2012/08/05 : 22:15:11
I just have to say with respect to the Liberty 8 (have had it now for a couple of weeks together with Faital HF 104), it is the absolute best speaker I’ve ever owned and also heard. Voices sound incredibly unreal, the dynamics and details make you so involved in the music, simply sounds more live. They are still not broken in so they get better day-by-day.
BR Åke
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Circlomanen Posted - 2012/08/08 : 19:47:41
To put a Beyma Liberty-8 in a bass reflex enclosure is driver assault - of the worst kind. Something mentioned in the Geneva Convention in relation to torture and abuse of drivers’ elementary rights.
BR Johannes
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Circlomanen Posted - 2012/08/14 : 22:59:39
If you want to maximize punch and attack, a pair of Beyma Liberty-8 could be great fun compared to those 8 inchers. Not good for live recordings or similar but for home use in a pair of BIB’s they are incredibly potent, with an attack and resolution that reminds me of Lowther drivers.
BR Johannes
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Circlomanen Posted - 2012/09/02 : 14:10:46
quote: Which 8" would you use with Beyma’s AMT, to go down low and meet the Liberty 8 in the RLK horn? Beyma 8MI?
While waiting for Ingvar to answer this, I just want to reflect a bit on the requirements facing an 8 incher that would pair nicely with Liberty-8. Since Liberty-8 is a rather unique driver with its overhung magnet system and non-existent Xmax (which is a real asset), the requirements on an 8” to play together with this driver are quiet large. Liberty-8 has sky-high sensitivity and a magnet motor with extremely low distortion. Suitable 8 inchers should have similar characteristics, so look for high Fs (70 Hz and up) and very low Qts. I would think a Lowther PM-4A in a conical horn would work perfectly. B&C 8P21 (http://www.bcspeakers.com/product.php?id=39) should also work well. There are of course more but these are what I believe are important features.
I haven’t heard the Beyma 8MI but they look really nice. Q irritates me a bit but is probably irrelevant for a midrange.
BR Johannes
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Ingvar.Ahlberg Posted - 2012/09/02 : 17:49:56
I would let the Liberty 8 take care of the whole voice band, i.e. up to 3kHz, it’s fantastic on voices in particular so it would be a shame not to use it.
BR Ingvar
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Circlomanen Posted - 2012/10/05 : 15:18:57
I think you should build two BIB’s with two Beyma Liberty-8 in each. Unfortunately, this solution falls under your restriction “excluding those counted in cubic meters”. But since you wrote “all suggestions appreciated”, I still want to mention the possibility. The advantage then would be such high sensitivity that you wouldn’t have to pad down the tweeter horns. In other words, you’d save on the cost of a couple of resistors
The BIB’s would be a measly 0.6 X 0.85 X 2.0 meters.
110 dB/2,83 volt/1 meter @ 30 Hz is fun.
BR Johannes
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Circlomanen Posted - 2012/10/15 : 22:39:47
BIB’s get along well with e.g. B&C 10MD26, Beyma 10MI100, 12P80Nd, Liberty-8, 18Sound 10M600, just to mention a few good drivers around 10 - 12 inch. They tend to get large if you go up towards 12 inch, but still take up very little floor space.
BR Johannes
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To be cont'd
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Circlomanen Posted - 2012/11/17 : 15:17:25
30 litre sealed box for your Liberty-8’s is like driving a Ferrari on a dirt road. You will be handicapping them immensely. They are going to lose a lot of everything that makes them so good...
Please, please, pleeeaaasssee!!!!!!!!! Not 20-30 liters sealed box for them!!!!! If you are going to use them as mids you can put them in an open baffle.
Re bass reflex, I’ll refrain from saying anything. It always gets so heated around here when I point out all their shortcomings.
Look at the Emperor’s nice new clothes!!!
BR Johannes
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Ingvar.Ahlberg Posted - 2012/11/17 : 16:03:55
Now I have to agree with Johannes, to put your Liberty 8 in a small sealed cabinet is as stupid as standing barefoot in a cow’s field and pee on the electric fencing, it’s going to hurt. In case the QW-1 enclosures aren’t enough, build RLK for the woofers and sit happily for the rest of your life.
BR Ingvar
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Circlomanen Posted - 2012/11/17 : 20:25:40
THAM12 or THAM15 can give you massive impulse-willing and dynamic bass reproduction. They are not particularly large. THAM12 should be within your size requirement. Those who have built them compare them to 18 inchers in BR and think they win in terms of both SPL and SQ, even if the last Hz down there in the abyss are missing.
I would think that a pair of 12P80Nd in THAM12 would pair well with your fine Liberty-8’s. The Liberty-8 is in many ways an extreme driver, however like with all extreme technology demands a lot from the rest in the signal chain. The wrong amplifier is just as bad as a 1.2 litre Opel engine in an articulated front-end loader mining vehicle. I would rather pee on an electric fence than putting those legendary drivers in a smallish sealed enclosure.
15” woofers in a home environment are fun but unfortunately also overkill in every thinkable way. If you want to keep the size down, you gain a lot from investing in smaller but better drivers. Think Bl. Think low Q-values. Think Nd.
BR Johannes
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Ingvar.Ahlberg Replied on: 2012/10/19 20:06:20
With such a nice HF horn, I would probably go for a good enough 12”, no need for an extra woofer then. With those volume restrictions for the box, an Onken-like version with a Faital 12PR310 would work incredibly great, comes in below your budget too, somewhat decent sensitivity, 99dB, f3 in such an enclosure around 40Hz. Ideally, you should go for the Beyma Liberty 8 for a few more tenners per driver.
BR Ingvar
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Circlomanen Replied on: 2012/10/19 20:33:08
I have to vouch for the truthfulness of the above, a pair of Faital Pro 12PR310 or similar drivers in two MLTL would give you all the bass you’re ever going to need. They are of high sensitivity and pack a helluva punch and dynamic elasticity. They make listening to music so much fun that you have to be snacking Stesolid in order to be able to sit still.
There are some side-effects with this solution which I have to warn you about; you will easily suffer from obsessive compulsory air guitar playing and the so-called "restless dancing syndrome" by which your living room is transformed into a rave party for no apparent reason. Many compare high-efficiency speakers to "X" and "Meth" and I want to raise a warning about their strongly addictive effects.
BR Johannes
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CirclomanenPosted - 2012/11/18 : 09:12:03
If you can stretch to 70 litre sealed, I think that could work fine. Put an 11 watt 4.7 to 10 ohms resistor in series to compensate for the low Qts value, which should also lower the distortion a bit. Cover all internal surfaces with damping material and use angled walls to break up resonances. I would think an active crossover at 150 Hz or thereabout should work well.
BR Johannes
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R1 T Posted - 2012/11/18 : 09:57:01
I have to ask why is it that 70 liters ”could work fine” while 30 liters is considered idiotic? Frequency-wise it is not a problem to reach 150 Hz with 30 liters. Does it have anything to do with the higher pressure in the smaller box, which in turns leads to greater distortion or are there other factors at play?
BR Åke
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Circlomanen Posted - 2012/11/18 : 11:56:18
Try it for yourself and you will see.... Sometimes (always) discussions get out of hand when I claim something but experience always count for more than theory. I most often argue based on my (highly unscientific) gut feeling, but I have learnt to trust it, as typically it is correct 99% of the time.
Exactly, the air inside the box is not very linear when it is being compressed. Besides those effects this has on the cone in general, the fact that it can affect the cones natural ability to flex in particular can hurt the tonal balance. Small sealed enclosures sound (in my experience) very un-dynamic and dull. It seems like the enclosed air volume functions as a dynamic compressor.
Then you have to add resonance and standing waves inside the box. With a greater air volume, there is more space to work with different kinds of damping, angled walls, bracing etc. I would like to recommend 5 x Vas but appreciate very few people are prepared to build as extreme.
For midrange I think open baffles and horn are superior to sealed boxes in all their shapes and forms, especially if the crossover is set high enough that the size of the baffle/horn can be kept reasonable. Bass horns and dipoles, with a bit of sensitivity, tend to get unwieldy large.
BR Johannes
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R1 T Posted - 2013/03/20 : 22:13:38
The advantage of active crossovers is that it’s easy to try out a few different combinations. At the moment, I’m actually running both a 3-way and a 2-way in the same loudspeaker; CP 380, Liberty 8 and 15P80Fe as a 3-way, as well as CP 380 and 15P80Fe as a 2-way.
I’m getting more and more impressed by the 15P80Fe, it sounds really good in a 2-way crossed over actively at 1200 Hz. I’ve got Behringer A500 on the tweeters and Inuke 6000 on the woofers. Right now, the 2-way setup actually sounds the best, playing with an unbelievable flow, great fidelity and dynamics.
What bewilders me a bit though is why I cannot get the 3-way to sound as good. In addition, I am getting about 3-4 dB higher sensitivity with the 2-way, which I find strange. Does anyone have any ideas to why this is?
BR Åke
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Sorry if too much OT...
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Very interesting posts, thanks a lot. Well, i have already too many speakers here, i have to give a stop.
The Liberty 8 has even smoother frequency graphs , and goes lower.
Certainly a extraordinary speaker.
Wonder, if it was made a direct comparison between the Liberty 8, and 12p80nd.
Wondering about the cabinet used: any drawings ?
I had a problem with one of the Line Magnetic 555 drivers. The diaphragm was topping on the backplate, causing disturbing noise and distortion. Jean Michel LeCleac'h gave me the decisive info, how to resolve the problem. I did put a carton ring , to elevate the distance to the back plate on the magnet system. Problem solved. I need to check now where the best crossover point is between the bass line array, and the LM555/38" horn, to get the smoothest possible integration. That will not be so easy. I have the impression i will have some work ahead, to get the best possible results, and then give a valuable opinion.
But first impressions are very promising.
The Liberty 8 has even smoother frequency graphs , and goes lower.
Certainly a extraordinary speaker.
Wonder, if it was made a direct comparison between the Liberty 8, and 12p80nd.
Wondering about the cabinet used: any drawings ?
I had a problem with one of the Line Magnetic 555 drivers. The diaphragm was topping on the backplate, causing disturbing noise and distortion. Jean Michel LeCleac'h gave me the decisive info, how to resolve the problem. I did put a carton ring , to elevate the distance to the back plate on the magnet system. Problem solved. I need to check now where the best crossover point is between the bass line array, and the LM555/38" horn, to get the smoothest possible integration. That will not be so easy. I have the impression i will have some work ahead, to get the best possible results, and then give a valuable opinion.
But first impressions are very promising.
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I am testing out the Beyma TPL-150 with 17uf Jantzen, 1st order + 12" Celestion Vintage 30 (favoured by guitarists) with line level low pass FMOD by Harrison laboratories. They are equal in sensitivity, which is practical.
After 5 minutes.
First impression - like ******* in the wind.
It is getting warmer now, and so is the tone, but still not close to the new Beyma 1" CD's on the emotionally intense slow songs. Guess this will be a six way, and not a 5 way. But a lot of badly recorded songs with too much noise just became listenable. And a violin solo does not cut in my ear anymore. Nor when females sing about stuff that ends with -s.
Examples:
"Eric Clapton - Preludin Fugue": First half just became listenable with the TPL-150. Second half og guitar licks lack the intensity I am used to with my 1 " CD's. It is difficult to describe. Slightly less involving, but it sounds good.
"Gerald Albright - Say Yes": Cheezy sax music that ofc involved me more with a Beyma 1" CD.
After 45 minutes...
"Gary Burton - Blue in Green": This is such a gentle song that I can't hear a difference almost. The song lacked intensity since before, so no need of a CD.
After 1 hour.
"Hugh Masekela - Abangoma The Healer": This is the trumpet song where I expected the CD to win. I have heard this song so many times with numerous CD's, yet the TPL-150 has something new to show me in the level of detail it produces. And intensity/dynamics is not to bad either.
The TPL is in need a of seriously dynamic and detailed midrange speaker. Not sure a 12" will cut it. My 12" did not, but that was expected.
After 2 hours.
Negative surprise. TPL-150 is bad at playing cymbals. *bringing out the 50 cm true ribbon supertweeter*
After 3 hours.
Been hearing a lot of old tunes now. I keep expecting my ears to hurt at certain parts of a song, but they don't. It is excellent. Just clean and nice music.
After 5 minutes.
First impression - like ******* in the wind.
It is getting warmer now, and so is the tone, but still not close to the new Beyma 1" CD's on the emotionally intense slow songs. Guess this will be a six way, and not a 5 way. But a lot of badly recorded songs with too much noise just became listenable. And a violin solo does not cut in my ear anymore. Nor when females sing about stuff that ends with -s.
Examples:
"Eric Clapton - Preludin Fugue": First half just became listenable with the TPL-150. Second half og guitar licks lack the intensity I am used to with my 1 " CD's. It is difficult to describe. Slightly less involving, but it sounds good.
"Gerald Albright - Say Yes": Cheezy sax music that ofc involved me more with a Beyma 1" CD.
After 45 minutes...
"Gary Burton - Blue in Green": This is such a gentle song that I can't hear a difference almost. The song lacked intensity since before, so no need of a CD.
After 1 hour.
"Hugh Masekela - Abangoma The Healer": This is the trumpet song where I expected the CD to win. I have heard this song so many times with numerous CD's, yet the TPL-150 has something new to show me in the level of detail it produces. And intensity/dynamics is not to bad either.
The TPL is in need a of seriously dynamic and detailed midrange speaker. Not sure a 12" will cut it. My 12" did not, but that was expected.
After 2 hours.
Negative surprise. TPL-150 is bad at playing cymbals. *bringing out the 50 cm true ribbon supertweeter*
After 3 hours.
Been hearing a lot of old tunes now. I keep expecting my ears to hurt at certain parts of a song, but they don't. It is excellent. Just clean and nice music.
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Hi Rewind,
Thanks for the report! Please keep us updated on your impressions
The new 1" Beyma Cd you mention, is that the CD10nd with the pm4 diaphragm? If "yes" then how does it compare to other CD's you have heard, and how far down in frequency do you use the driver?
BTW: I already have the TPL-150H (the horn loaded version), and I like it a lot!
Thanks!
Best regards
Peter
Thanks for the report! Please keep us updated on your impressions
The new 1" Beyma Cd you mention, is that the CD10nd with the pm4 diaphragm? If "yes" then how does it compare to other CD's you have heard, and how far down in frequency do you use the driver?
BTW: I already have the TPL-150H (the horn loaded version), and I like it a lot!
Thanks!
Best regards
Peter
Yes, I was very impressed by the CD10ND, but it was a little too intense. Very detailed, and airy, but it was like it wanted too much which resulted in some distortions in the sound. I prefer the TPL-150 as a solution to get rid of distortions. Don't disregard the cheaper ironmagnet Beyma 1".
The older CP380/M, that apparently avantgarde uses or used to use, has a more fuller upper midrange sound than the CD10ND, and by upper midrange I mean around 1kHz and upwards. CP380/M sounds more grown up, less toyish, but I remember I preferred the CD10ND. In the end, they were so similar, when dialled in correctly.
I had a Behringer CX3400 analog active XO that is not very precise. I would guess 850-900 Hz, but not lower than that, at least not in the smallest horn of the A-G Trio. In that horn, I get a very bad distortion sound if I push the CD10ND too low, i.e. lower than 600Hz.
Nice that you liked my "impressions"!
J
PS. I can listen to Mars Volta and also The Blood Brothers for the first since I got involved with horns!
The older CP380/M, that apparently avantgarde uses or used to use, has a more fuller upper midrange sound than the CD10ND, and by upper midrange I mean around 1kHz and upwards. CP380/M sounds more grown up, less toyish, but I remember I preferred the CD10ND. In the end, they were so similar, when dialled in correctly.
I had a Behringer CX3400 analog active XO that is not very precise. I would guess 850-900 Hz, but not lower than that, at least not in the smallest horn of the A-G Trio. In that horn, I get a very bad distortion sound if I push the CD10ND too low, i.e. lower than 600Hz.
Nice that you liked my "impressions"!
J
PS. I can listen to Mars Volta and also The Blood Brothers for the first since I got involved with horns!
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Hi Rewind,
Thanks for you reply!
Your impressions regarding the Beyma TPL-150(H) resembles mine. The Beyma TPL simply sounds more relaxed and natural relative to the compression drivers I have tried so far. I was especially annoyed by the (over) pronounced t- and s- sounds I occationally got when listening especially to female voices. Some recordings simply were unlistenable with the compression drivers - at least the ones I have tried.
Best regards
Peter
Thanks for you reply!
Your impressions regarding the Beyma TPL-150(H) resembles mine. The Beyma TPL simply sounds more relaxed and natural relative to the compression drivers I have tried so far. I was especially annoyed by the (over) pronounced t- and s- sounds I occationally got when listening especially to female voices. Some recordings simply were unlistenable with the compression drivers - at least the ones I have tried.
Best regards
Peter
Yes, I was very impressed by the CD10ND, but it was a little too intense. Very detailed, and airy, but it was like it wanted too much which resulted in some distortions in the sound. I prefer the TPL-150 as a solution to get rid of distortions. Don't disregard the cheaper ironmagnet Beyma 1".
The older CP380/M, that apparently avantgarde uses or used to use, has a more fuller upper midrange sound than the CD10ND, and by upper midrange I mean around 1kHz and upwards. CP380/M sounds more grown up, less toyish, but I remember I preferred the CD10ND. In the end, they were so similar, when dialled in correctly.
I had a Behringer CX3400 analog active XO that is not very precise. I would guess 850-900 Hz, but not lower than that, at least not in the smallest horn of the A-G Trio. In that horn, I get a very bad distortion sound if I push the CD10ND too low, i.e. lower than 600Hz.
Nice that you liked my "impressions"!
J
A question to the TPL users. What amp is best to drive it? I read it goes down to 2 ohm which is bad for tube amps. My true ribbon really heats up the 2A3 amp and I think it causes distortions. Something more powerful is needed for a true ribbon.I have not tested the TPL with tube amps yet, but I suspect it to be the case for the TPL as well.
Example simulation of 12P80Nd in an aperodic ported cabinet showing the modest bass shelf to extend a Fs=45Hz, Qts=0.15 speaker down to ~80Hz.
Room gain which can complement a bass shelf sometimes plays a role in getting a flat response at these midbass frequencies.
Room gain which can complement a bass shelf sometimes plays a role in getting a flat response at these midbass frequencies.
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Excellent! Could you kindly model the same for an MLTL and a TQWT too, please...?
About the Liberty 8 12". From what I read they sound identical to a E-120, but with a fresh magnet. Some say the E-120 looses its edge after a year because the magnet weakens. It is designed to be a guitar speaker. A very bright and sensitive guitar speaker. Not sure it should be used in hifi. Guitar speakers usually smoothens out harsh sounds that a hifi speaker would produce correctly, but bad sounding on live guitar. The Liberty 8 and the E-120 seem to be for guitar players with a certain style only. Maybe the style of careful picking of the strings, not to produce any bad sounds.
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I have drived it with 3 different amps.
Viva Solista Tube amp : shy treble.
Hiraga Le Monstre : the best amp to drive tpl. Unfortunately , too little power ( thats why i sold it )
Classé Audio DR3b : too much treble, and harsh.
Next amp, i will try, is a 300b based tube amp.
amps that might combine well : Satri Bakoon, and First Watt.
What i like of the 12p80nd over the LM555/38", is the low frequency extension. It sounds more integrated. But is also more natural. And wider disperson / matching with TPL. The LM555 sounds more precise, more defined, detailled. I will keep both, but work in the next few months to optimize LM555, and try to get out the best of it.
Yes, i bought this WE91b based amp i Japan :
http://www.audio-collections.com/gallery/archivegallery/power/powerdata/300Bclassicalneomono.html
, and Takatsuki TA-300b tubes.
Will see how it performs.....
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Since someone mentioned the Beyma Liberty 8 as a direct contendor to the Beyma 12p80ND, and since someone confirmed the Liberty 8 to be a very good clone of the JBL E-120, here is how the JBL E-120, D120F and K-120 sound on electric guitar on random youtube clips.
The JBL D-120F is a similar alnico version of the E-120, which has a ceramic magnet. As a midbass driver you would not play it fullrange like these guitarists do. In fullrange, these speakers are nasty, and that is probably why the K-120 is preferred sometimes as it apparently smoothens the sound. Drivers with alu dust caps are known for a bright and sharp sound, which could be good for increased clarity in midbass.
JBL E-120
Goodsell Super 17 Mk.2 - YouTube
JBL D-120F (alnico) at 1:29 min Clean Guitar Speaker Shootout: Celestion, JBL D120, Altec Lansing, using Top Hat Amp Head - YouTube
I am using the Celestion Vintage 30 as a midbass, and it is played right after the D-120F in this video.
JBL K-120 NEW RIG TESTING - YouTube
Worth looking at since someone who had both the JBL E-120 and K-120 in a guitar cabinet wrote this about the E-120's "piercing quality" and how K-120 is more smooth:
"I have 2x12 E's and K's (HT style). I still A/B a lot when trying different tunes and parts. But I generally settle on the K120's.
I actually find them smoother or more controlled/consistent - the E's seem to have a piercing quality at the mid and high range (depending on volume). Both sound fantastic though...just my preference."
Another famous alu dust cap midbass driver is the ATC PA 75-314-STD. They are old, but cost only 100GBP a piece on ebay. I own four of these, but they are in need of reconing and ATC charge 200GBP for a DIY kit. They were used in Genesis' UK tour 1979. Back then, they were ground breaking and put ATC on the map. They were also used in the very expensive ATC SCM100 in 1988. But they are low on sensitivity.
I love the ATC sound. They remind me of a dry paper sound, Vox guitar amps, and fish n' chips.
Info:
"ATC PA75-314, 75 W normal input power, 150w maximum input power, 3 inch voice coil, 8 ohms, huge vented alnico magnet with heatsink, rubber surround, die cast aluminium frame."
I posted a video of a ATC PA 314-75, but sadly with the wrong recone kit mounted - bass version instead of standard version, so the voice coil was scraping. Here my poor attempt of a demo:
First try of hornloading an ATC PA75-314 12" and a SCM16A tweeter - YouTube
Here is the modern version of these woofers for Hifi use. They are called ATC SB75-314SC Mk. II. They cost 335GPB at Wilmslow.co.uk, but some may not like the "Sensitivity (2.83v/1m): 89dB!"
DIY ATC SCM100 speakers with ATC SPA2-200P amplifier playing Keith Richards studio noodling - YouTube
The JBL D-120F is a similar alnico version of the E-120, which has a ceramic magnet. As a midbass driver you would not play it fullrange like these guitarists do. In fullrange, these speakers are nasty, and that is probably why the K-120 is preferred sometimes as it apparently smoothens the sound. Drivers with alu dust caps are known for a bright and sharp sound, which could be good for increased clarity in midbass.
JBL E-120
Goodsell Super 17 Mk.2 - YouTube
JBL D-120F (alnico) at 1:29 min Clean Guitar Speaker Shootout: Celestion, JBL D120, Altec Lansing, using Top Hat Amp Head - YouTube
I am using the Celestion Vintage 30 as a midbass, and it is played right after the D-120F in this video.
JBL K-120 NEW RIG TESTING - YouTube
Worth looking at since someone who had both the JBL E-120 and K-120 in a guitar cabinet wrote this about the E-120's "piercing quality" and how K-120 is more smooth:
"I have 2x12 E's and K's (HT style). I still A/B a lot when trying different tunes and parts. But I generally settle on the K120's.
I actually find them smoother or more controlled/consistent - the E's seem to have a piercing quality at the mid and high range (depending on volume). Both sound fantastic though...just my preference."
Another famous alu dust cap midbass driver is the ATC PA 75-314-STD. They are old, but cost only 100GBP a piece on ebay. I own four of these, but they are in need of reconing and ATC charge 200GBP for a DIY kit. They were used in Genesis' UK tour 1979. Back then, they were ground breaking and put ATC on the map. They were also used in the very expensive ATC SCM100 in 1988. But they are low on sensitivity.
I love the ATC sound. They remind me of a dry paper sound, Vox guitar amps, and fish n' chips.
Info:
"ATC PA75-314, 75 W normal input power, 150w maximum input power, 3 inch voice coil, 8 ohms, huge vented alnico magnet with heatsink, rubber surround, die cast aluminium frame."
I posted a video of a ATC PA 314-75, but sadly with the wrong recone kit mounted - bass version instead of standard version, so the voice coil was scraping. Here my poor attempt of a demo:
First try of hornloading an ATC PA75-314 12" and a SCM16A tweeter - YouTube
Here is the modern version of these woofers for Hifi use. They are called ATC SB75-314SC Mk. II. They cost 335GPB at Wilmslow.co.uk, but some may not like the "Sensitivity (2.83v/1m): 89dB!"
DIY ATC SCM100 speakers with ATC SPA2-200P amplifier playing Keith Richards studio noodling - YouTube
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