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Old 31st March 2013, 05:13 AM   #21
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Angelo,

You have changed the audio illusion by changing the polar response over the frequency range now covered by the Beyma 12P80Nd. The Beyma 12P80Nd covers the main vocal range 80-1100Hz. You have increased the room interaction from all the energy pumped by the 12P80Nd into 180 degree 2-pi space, which was previously removed by the horn's limited polar pattern.

"Do you feel lucky Punk?

Everytime I purchase a new CD I remember this line from the Dirty Harry movie.
Stereo recordings are only a BIG FAKE ILLUSION.
The sonic quality and stereophonic presentation of each recording is a gamble.

When you bring questionable recordings and fake audio illusions into your home, your selection of speakers offer several very different options for the presentation.

1) Do you want to hear what the microphones hear? Horn speakers, especially converged entry unity horns, are good for this presentation. Many classical recordings use just two orthogonal mikes which match well with controlled polar pattern horns.

2) Do you want to add some auditorium ambience? Box monopole speakers with flat frequency response and controlled directivity can do this. Most of the 80-1100Hz vocal range can be covered by one speaker propagating into 180 degree 2-pi space. Beyma 12P80Nd

3) Do you want the illusion of the musicians playing in your room? Dipole and caridiod speakers can do this. Adding diffusion panels on the front wall behind the speaker improves the "they are here" illusion.

4) Do you want to play conductor like StigErik? Nearfield listening of large dipole planars like BG75, Magnepan and Apogee blends the microphone directness with on-stage depth, similar to what a conductor hears.
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Old 31st March 2013, 05:43 AM   #22
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That Beyma 12 looks like it would make a nice midbass driver in a front horn. It's a shame the Beyma tweeter won't go deeper into the midrange. Have you tried a bigger horn on it? What is it's resonance frequency?
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Old 31st March 2013, 07:31 AM   #23
Juhazi is online now Juhazi  Finland
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^^Line Source...

Oh my God, I must have that post framed in my room! Exactly, you really have encapsulated the basics of stereo sound reproduction at home!

I can only add that the room characteristics play a role too.

Thank You!
Juha

p.s. I use Beyma 12MWNd as lower mid in my AINO GRADIENT
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Last edited by Juhazi; 31st March 2013 at 07:35 AM.
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Old 31st March 2013, 09:42 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LineSource View Post
2) Do you want to add some auditorium ambience? Box monopole speakers with flat frequency response and controlled directivity can do this. Most of the 80-1100Hz vocal range can be covered by one speaker propagating into 180 degree 2-pi space. Beyma 12P80Nd
hello Linesource

one of the main reasons that i judge the 12p80nd as a positive improvement is exactly what you described. Before, only the tpl150 had a wide vertical dispersion, with a dismatch in regard of the lower midrange horn, which is much more directional. Now the directivity pattern of both speakers do match much better, and indeed, the soundstage widens up. I consider also the fact, that the Beyma covers lower, down to 80hz ( rather 150hz of the large low-midrange horn ) as a positive improvement. A 3 way combo of the TPL150, 12p80nd, and a powerful sub, covering up to 80hz, with dsp and multi amplification, makes a tremendous setup.


Quote:
That Beyma 12 looks like it would make a nice midbass driver in a front horn. It's a shame the Beyma tweeter won't go deeper into the midrange. Have you tried a bigger horn on it? What is it's resonance frequency?
The 12p80nd has a very linear frequency response. Put it into a horn, the linearity has gone. Beside this, you improve the efficiency. But now the efficiency is about the same with the tpl150.
Also, i am crossing at 1200hz, 6db. The 12p80nd covers up to that frequency very well.
So i don't see any advantage here.

Last edited by angeloitacare; 31st March 2013 at 09:45 AM.
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Old 31st March 2013, 12:03 PM   #25
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Hi Angelo,

Would you say 1200Hz is the optimum crossover frequency between the 12P80Nd and the TPL150?
Have you removed the rear cover from the TPL150?
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Old 31st March 2013, 12:41 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnc View Post
Hi Angelo,

Would you say 1200Hz is the optimum crossover frequency between the 12P80Nd and the TPL150?
Have you removed the rear cover from the TPL150?
hi John

yes, i have removed the rear cover. With the wave guide, 1200hz crossover sounds very good to me. I have however not compared, moving further up, and try 1500hz or so. I will probably buy a minidsp to have more flexibility and play around.

With the amp , i use now, a Classé Audio DR3b, treble sounds too overpronounciated. And generally, too hard to my ears. I will probably use it in the future only for bass, and for midrange, and treble, look for a tube amp again. I sold the Viva, thanks God..... That amp was the contrary to the Classé - missing treble, and sounding dark.

Also, the position of the speakers is not good. I will overthink the whole concept of my system - which will be a lot of fun. But a important discovery for me has been, that i like a wider directivity , and wider and deeper soundstage, than with horns. I start to not see advantage anymore using horns for domestic use. Dinamics and low distortion of Beyma speakers are so fantastic, that use them just as direct radiators provides me a lot of fun.
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Old 31st March 2013, 01:30 PM   #27
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You may want to see this thread about using TPL-150. It gives some insight into it's strong and weak points.

TPL150 DIY

We have found our pair to be best crossed above closer to 2KHz with at least 24dB/oct. I will be experimenting with ours soon to try to mod it to be able to run the Xover lower. I am thinking removal of the hard felt glued directly to the rear of the driver and using a larger rear chamber stuffed with bonded logic, but all ideas need measuring and listening tests.
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Old 31st March 2013, 02:02 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by angeloitacare View Post
yes, i have removed the rear cover. With the wave guide, 1200hz crossover sounds very good to me. I have however not compared, moving further up, and try 1500hz or so. I will probably buy a minidsp to have more flexibility and play around.

With the amp , i use now, a Classé Audio DR3b, treble sounds too overpronounciated. And generally, too hard to my ears. I will probably use it in the future only for bass, and for midrange, and treble, look for a tube amp again. I sold the Viva, thanks God..... That amp was the contrary to the Classé - missing treble, and sounding dark.

Also, the position of the speakers is not good. I will overthink the whole concept of my system - which will be a lot of fun. But a important discovery for me has been, that i like a wider directivity , and wider and deeper soundstage, than with horns. I start to not see advantage anymore using horns for domestic use. Dinamics and low distortion of Beyma speakers are so fantastic, that use them just as direct radiators provides me a lot of fun.
Hi Angelo,

The 2kHz breakup of the 12P80Nd adds 10dB to the SPL level.
With electrical crossover at 1200Hz - the 12P80Nd will acoustically actually run up to ca. 4kHz - the combination of filter and breakup peak. Without one or more zobel filters the acoustic crossover may even be as high as 5 or 6kHz...

So I do NOT think it is your amplifier that is THE problem, but the breakup of the 12P80Nd and the overlap you get between 1kHz and 4/5/6kHz with a increased level.

You need a RLC filter tuned to 2kHz to attenuate the breakup. Then you need to check the impedance curve and add a zobel network or two to control the impedance as the rising impedance will move the acoustic crossover frequency up... Then you need a RLC filter tuned to 45Hz to attenuate the FS resonance.

Then the crossover frequency and the SPL level will be much more correct, and your system will start playing "music".

I personally would not have used the 12P80Nd above 200 to 400Hz due to both the 2kHz breakup and the 400Hz breakup..
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Old 31st March 2013, 02:52 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studiotech View Post
You may want to see this thread about using TPL-150. It gives some insight into it's strong and weak points.

TPL150 DIY

We have found our pair to be best crossed above closer to 2KHz with at least 24dB/oct. I will be experimenting with ours soon to try to mod it to be able to run the Xover lower. I am thinking removal of the hard felt glued directly to the rear of the driver and using a larger rear chamber stuffed with bonded logic, but all ideas need measuring and listening tests.
Fantastic thread. All considered, I'll save up for a dedicated midrange driver so the TPL150 can be crossed above 2kHz.
But for now, the 12P80Nd + TPL150H is still really nice.
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Old 31st March 2013, 04:46 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RayCtech View Post
Hi Angelo,

The 2kHz breakup of the 12P80Nd adds 10dB to the SPL level.
With electrical crossover at 1200Hz - the 12P80Nd will acoustically actually run up to ca. 4kHz - the combination of filter and breakup peak. Without one or more zobel filters the acoustic crossover may even be as high as 5 or 6kHz...

So I do NOT think it is your amplifier that is THE problem, but the breakup of the 12P80Nd and the overlap you get between 1kHz and 4/5/6kHz with a increased level.

You need a RLC filter tuned to 2kHz to attenuate the breakup. Then you need to check the impedance curve and add a zobel network or two to control the impedance as the rising impedance will move the acoustic crossover frequency up... Then you need a RLC filter tuned to 45Hz to attenuate the FS resonance.

Then the crossover frequency and the SPL level will be much more correct, and your system will start playing "music".

I personally would not have used the 12P80Nd above 200 to 400Hz due to both the 2kHz breakup and the 400Hz breakup..
hi Raymond

thanks for your insights. I am aware, there is a lot to do, and to remodel. I am in a transition of giving up horns, and building a direct radiator system, with high efficiency, low distortion speakers, and so keeping the advantages of horns,but without the setbacks, horn coloration, and limited dispersion ( i have discovered, that i like wide dispersion better, which gives a wider and deeper soundstage and ambience ). I am not a expert in crossover building, thats why i kept a really simple first order, just to have a first listening impression. I think it will be much easyer and give more flexibility to play around with a mini dsp.
Beside, what is bothering, is not the 2 - 6 khz range, but clearly the upper treble , which is overly bright. Also something that i can tam with minidsp, which has a room correction plugin, and other features. What i imagine is
a 3 way system, using a sub up to 80hz, 12p80nd from 80hz to 1200hz, a TPL150, and eventually above a second sub bass, in a vertical array, multi amp , using my Classé DR3b for bass, and two tube amps for lower midrange, and midtreble........
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