Angelo,
You have changed the audio illusion by changing the polar response over the frequency range now covered by the Beyma 12P80Nd. The Beyma 12P80Nd covers the main vocal range 80-1100Hz. You have increased the room interaction from all the energy pumped by the 12P80Nd into 180 degree 2-pi space, which was previously removed by the horn's limited polar pattern.
"Do you feel lucky Punk?
Everytime I purchase a new CD I remember this line from the Dirty Harry movie.
Stereo recordings are only a BIG FAKE ILLUSION.
The sonic quality and stereophonic presentation of each recording is a gamble.
When you bring questionable recordings and fake audio illusions into your home, your selection of speakers offer several very different options for the presentation.
1) Do you want to hear what the microphones hear? Horn speakers, especially converged entry unity horns, are good for this presentation. Many classical recordings use just two orthogonal mikes which match well with controlled polar pattern horns.
2) Do you want to add some auditorium ambience? Box monopole speakers with flat frequency response and controlled directivity can do this. Most of the 80-1100Hz vocal range can be covered by one speaker propagating into 180 degree 2-pi space. Beyma 12P80Nd
3) Do you want the illusion of the musicians playing in your room? Dipole and caridiod speakers can do this. Adding diffusion panels on the front wall behind the speaker improves the "they are here" illusion.
4) Do you want to play conductor like StigErik? Nearfield listening of large dipole planars like BG75, Magnepan and Apogee blends the microphone directness with on-stage depth, similar to what a conductor hears.
You have changed the audio illusion by changing the polar response over the frequency range now covered by the Beyma 12P80Nd. The Beyma 12P80Nd covers the main vocal range 80-1100Hz. You have increased the room interaction from all the energy pumped by the 12P80Nd into 180 degree 2-pi space, which was previously removed by the horn's limited polar pattern.
"Do you feel lucky Punk?
Everytime I purchase a new CD I remember this line from the Dirty Harry movie.
Stereo recordings are only a BIG FAKE ILLUSION.
The sonic quality and stereophonic presentation of each recording is a gamble.
When you bring questionable recordings and fake audio illusions into your home, your selection of speakers offer several very different options for the presentation.
1) Do you want to hear what the microphones hear? Horn speakers, especially converged entry unity horns, are good for this presentation. Many classical recordings use just two orthogonal mikes which match well with controlled polar pattern horns.
2) Do you want to add some auditorium ambience? Box monopole speakers with flat frequency response and controlled directivity can do this. Most of the 80-1100Hz vocal range can be covered by one speaker propagating into 180 degree 2-pi space. Beyma 12P80Nd
3) Do you want the illusion of the musicians playing in your room? Dipole and caridiod speakers can do this. Adding diffusion panels on the front wall behind the speaker improves the "they are here" illusion.
4) Do you want to play conductor like StigErik? Nearfield listening of large dipole planars like BG75, Magnepan and Apogee blends the microphone directness with on-stage depth, similar to what a conductor hears.
^^Line Source...
Oh my God, I must have that post framed in my room! Exactly, you really have encapsulated the basics of stereo sound reproduction at home!
I can only add that the room characteristics play a role too.
Thank You!
Juha
p.s. I use Beyma 12MWNd as lower mid in my AINO GRADIENT
Oh my God, I must have that post framed in my room! Exactly, you really have encapsulated the basics of stereo sound reproduction at home!
I can only add that the room characteristics play a role too.
Thank You!
Juha
p.s. I use Beyma 12MWNd as lower mid in my AINO GRADIENT
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hello Linesource
one of the main reasons that i judge the 12p80nd as a positive improvement is exactly what you described. Before, only the tpl150 had a wide vertical dispersion, with a dismatch in regard of the lower midrange horn, which is much more directional. Now the directivity pattern of both speakers do match much better, and indeed, the soundstage widens up. I consider also the fact, that the Beyma covers lower, down to 80hz ( rather 150hz of the large low-midrange horn ) as a positive improvement. A 3 way combo of the TPL150, 12p80nd, and a powerful sub, covering up to 80hz, with dsp and multi amplification, makes a tremendous setup.
The 12p80nd has a very linear frequency response. Put it into a horn, the linearity has gone. Beside this, you improve the efficiency. But now the efficiency is about the same with the tpl150.
Also, i am crossing at 1200hz, 6db. The 12p80nd covers up to that frequency very well.
So i don't see any advantage here.
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hi John
yes, i have removed the rear cover. With the wave guide, 1200hz crossover sounds very good to me. I have however not compared, moving further up, and try 1500hz or so. I will probably buy a minidsp to have more flexibility and play around.
With the amp , i use now, a Classé Audio DR3b, treble sounds too overpronounciated. And generally, too hard to my ears. I will probably use it in the future only for bass, and for midrange, and treble, look for a tube amp again. I sold the Viva, thanks God..... That amp was the contrary to the Classé - missing treble, and sounding dark.
Also, the position of the speakers is not good. I will overthink the whole concept of my system - which will be a lot of fun. But a important discovery for me has been, that i like a wider directivity , and wider and deeper soundstage, than with horns. I start to not see advantage anymore using horns for domestic use. Dinamics and low distortion of Beyma speakers are so fantastic, that use them just as direct radiators provides me a lot of fun.
You may want to see this thread about using TPL-150. It gives some insight into it's strong and weak points.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-exotics/221279-tpl150-diy.html
We have found our pair to be best crossed above closer to 2KHz with at least 24dB/oct. I will be experimenting with ours soon to try to mod it to be able to run the Xover lower. I am thinking removal of the hard felt glued directly to the rear of the driver and using a larger rear chamber stuffed with bonded logic, but all ideas need measuring and listening tests.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-exotics/221279-tpl150-diy.html
We have found our pair to be best crossed above closer to 2KHz with at least 24dB/oct. I will be experimenting with ours soon to try to mod it to be able to run the Xover lower. I am thinking removal of the hard felt glued directly to the rear of the driver and using a larger rear chamber stuffed with bonded logic, but all ideas need measuring and listening tests.
Hi Angelo,
The 2kHz breakup of the 12P80Nd adds 10dB to the SPL level.
With electrical crossover at 1200Hz - the 12P80Nd will acoustically actually run up to ca. 4kHz - the combination of filter and breakup peak. Without one or more zobel filters the acoustic crossover may even be as high as 5 or 6kHz...
So I do NOT think it is your amplifier that is THE problem, but the breakup of the 12P80Nd and the overlap you get between 1kHz and 4/5/6kHz with a increased level.
You need a RLC filter tuned to 2kHz to attenuate the breakup. Then you need to check the impedance curve and add a zobel network or two to control the impedance as the rising impedance will move the acoustic crossover frequency up... Then you need a RLC filter tuned to 45Hz to attenuate the FS resonance.
Then the crossover frequency and the SPL level will be much more correct, and your system will start playing "music".
I personally would not have used the 12P80Nd above 200 to 400Hz due to both the 2kHz breakup and the 400Hz breakup..
Fantastic thread. All considered, I'll save up for a dedicated midrange driver so the TPL150 can be crossed above 2kHz.
But for now, the 12P80Nd + TPL150H is still really nice.
hi Raymond
thanks for your insights. I am aware, there is a lot to do, and to remodel. I am in a transition of giving up horns, and building a direct radiator system, with high efficiency, low distortion speakers, and so keeping the advantages of horns,but without the setbacks, horn coloration, and limited dispersion ( i have discovered, that i like wide dispersion better, which gives a wider and deeper soundstage and ambience ). I am not a expert in crossover building, thats why i kept a really simple first order, just to have a first listening impression. I think it will be much easyer and give more flexibility to play around with a mini dsp.
Beside, what is bothering, is not the 2 - 6 khz range, but clearly the upper treble , which is overly bright. Also something that i can tam with minidsp, which has a room correction plugin, and other features. What i imagine is
a 3 way system, using a sub up to 80hz, 12p80nd from 80hz to 1200hz, a TPL150, and eventually above a second sub bass, in a vertical array, multi amp , using my Classé DR3b for bass, and two tube amps for lower midrange, and midtreble........
Let me make sure I've got this correct....you are at 1200Hz with only a 6dB/oct slope on the TPL-150? And you like the sound? Whoa! Makes me cringe just thinking about it. The good news is, with some more work and careful adjustments, you have the pieces their to make something pretty special. I too think what you are hearing is a broad overlap of the drivers and rising distortion of the TPL and the rising response of the 12P80nd. Also ,the TPL is probably a little hot compared to the 12P80nd. I don't care what the listed spec says, look at the charts for each driver. Everything you need to know(except for your own in-room measurements) is there. You may want to lower the TPL 2-3dB.
hi Studiotech
i certainly agree that the crossover is not optimally adjusted. I have a original Beyma 212 crossover here, which is second order. I used it as well in the same combo, but did not like it. The TPL-150 sounds agressive and harsh with it. It might be because of the components used ? I hear no distortion. I think that is because of low volume used.
Next week i might make some frequency plots , to see what is going on, and see what frequency range each channel reproduces.
hi Peter
i had a cabinet , which i used for a Audax bass. I just adapted it, to fit the 12p80nd. Its size is 40cm x 40cm x 90cm, a mix of transmission line, and bassreflex, with the port on the back side. Not optimal, but enough to have a idea about how the 12p80nd behaves. You can see the drawing here :
Audax 3 way speaker - Audio Voice Acoustics
i think a smaller sealed cab would be better, to reproduce the target frequency range. The way it is now, there is a lot of overlap also in the bass.
This midwoofer has Fs of 45hz, and still a lot of bass output.....
In my opinion its not a right decision - trying to make a bass from these 12 inchers. For bass you need add another drivers to this... Anf if you still want to make a slim two-way speakers with some enough bass response you may to change a midbass model...
One and only way to get the bass from 12p80nd is to design a new very special back-load horns for it. Back load horns with very high compression ratio in chamber. Something like designs for Lowthers etc., but matched to 12 inch size... And I'm not sure that you do not damage existing sound advantages, that you like at this time with simple closed boxes.
One and only way to get the bass from 12p80nd is to design a new very special back-load horns for it. Back load horns with very high compression ratio in chamber. Something like designs for Lowthers etc., but matched to 12 inch size... And I'm not sure that you do not damage existing sound advantages, that you like at this time with simple closed boxes.
I am indeed afraid that making a backloaded horn, i loose the sublime lower midrange quality , which is the best i have heard so far ( and its not even yet well tuned, and with the right crossover ).
It seems the 12LW30N has good bass output down to 40hz with a 50l ported cab.
http://profesional.beyma.com/ingles/pdf/12LW30N.pdf
maibe that could be a good combo.....
that one looks good:
http://profesional.beyma.com/pdf/12B100-RE.pdf
but i suspect transients are not so good. Maibe someone knows it....