I am not sure those M1's are the best. I have a bunch of Beyma MI100 that might work great in the Avantgarde trio midbass horn, but does little good as an upper midrange without a horn.
The TPL-150 is playing right next to me, and although it can sound clearer, it is also more boring, and correct, than a rather musical and expressive hornloaded Beyma 1" driver. The Beyma in a Avantgarde Trio tweeter horn that I casted in plaster is very nice, but I have found I like a paper horn better. I will try soft wood also, then I will decide. I felt I must try to do something about the harshness I felt after listening to the TPL-150 and Beyma 1" together, and changing to softer materials in the horn really work wonders.
For midrange horns I have a new found love for the Community M200, and now in a Avantgarde Trio midhorn, also in paper. The paper softens everything, making it sound almost like a vintage paper cone midrange. I still can't decide which combo I will use. I must place all my prototypes next to each other and the answer will become obvious.
But perhaps not. One day I might get tired of the horn sound, and want something boxy and speaker sounding speakers. Hornloading is an effect, and not a precise way to recreate sound. It is like a wobbly kind of ultra realism, that is not just real but surreal. Right now I love horns way more than anything else.
The TPL-150 is playing right next to me, and although it can sound clearer, it is also more boring, and correct, than a rather musical and expressive hornloaded Beyma 1" driver. The Beyma in a Avantgarde Trio tweeter horn that I casted in plaster is very nice, but I have found I like a paper horn better. I will try soft wood also, then I will decide. I felt I must try to do something about the harshness I felt after listening to the TPL-150 and Beyma 1" together, and changing to softer materials in the horn really work wonders.
For midrange horns I have a new found love for the Community M200, and now in a Avantgarde Trio midhorn, also in paper. The paper softens everything, making it sound almost like a vintage paper cone midrange. I still can't decide which combo I will use. I must place all my prototypes next to each other and the answer will become obvious.
But perhaps not. One day I might get tired of the horn sound, and want something boxy and speaker sounding speakers. Hornloading is an effect, and not a precise way to recreate sound. It is like a wobbly kind of ultra realism, that is not just real but surreal. Right now I love horns way more than anything else.
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After i sold the Viva Solista Tube amp, i bought a Classé Audio DR3b power amp. It was sounding very harsh, and unpleasant specially in mid/treble region. I had the oportunity to buy a Hiraga Le Class A 30 Watts power amp, it arrived last week, and as expected, very smooth , delicate , nice treble. After two days, a smell of burn, and it was ready for repair. 6 transistors to replace....In the mean time, i got some speaker cables made by my dad. He has become famous amongst audiophiles in the region he lives in italy. They compared his cables with much more expensive ones, costing over 1k. euros, and his cables where preferred. He uses very pure oxygenfree computer cables, interlaces them. He explained me, these cables need to have the right diameter, isolation etc. Story short, i put the Classé back, while repairing the Hiraga, and replaced the previously used cables, which are military grade cables from italy, containing silver. Surprise, surprise : The aggressiveness has been tamed , it almost disappeared. The Classé sounds now almost as delicate as the Hiraga, but i still prefere the Hiraga. Just wondering how good the Hiraga will sound with the new cables, if even with the previous cables it sounded good. The TPL150 is extreamly revealing. Change a amp, a cable, and the difference is immediately perceived. So matching it with the right amp and cables is of paramount importance.
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Well. I think there are a lot of different things one can adjust before buying $1k cables. I have had similar moments when I upgrade ugly china caps I find in my amps with Scandinavian Jensen or German Mundorf caps. The difference is not mindblowing but it is there.
The difference with using paper horns instead of plastic and plaster was that I could start using a Community M200 driver I had given up on.
The difference with using paper horns instead of plastic and plaster was that I could start using a Community M200 driver I had given up on.
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The 12p80nd has about 95db/wm , while the TPL150 without a wave guide about 99db/wm. In praxis, the difference is not perceivable. The synergy of both is great. The 12p80nd goes flat down to 50hz, in a 90l closed cabinet:
measurement of frequency response you can find here :
AV Eikon : finished - Page 4 - Audio Voice Acoustics
in most cases this is enough.
I want to use TPL-150H. if the efficiency of 12P80nd is 95db@1m, why Daniel Hertz M1 claims to reach 100db?! 12P80nd is used in M1 speaker as a midrange I think. in the datasheet it is stated that frequency response of 12P80nd is 25hz - 4Khz so why does it go down to 50Hz only?
I'm confused!
I thought I could build a 100db efficient two way speaker with covers at least 40hz - 23Khz. TPL-150H performs soo good and sound good to my ears, no honkiness of horns, no ringing or resonancedoes anyone has any suggestion for me? I have access to all Beyma Products and I want to have build a good speaker, I mean a world class speakers which can compete with expensive brands. how about building something like M1 but TPL-150H instead of horn + CD. that would be something fun
Because Beyma claims it as well. But if you check their data sheet, you will observe, that it reaches 100db/wm only at a small peak, above 1,8khz :
http://profesional.beyma.com/pdf/12P80NdE.pdf
at the whole range from ~150hz to about 1,8khz, it stays flat at ~95db/wm.
I don't think you should care so much about data sheets. The 12p80nd is a great match with the TPL150(H). If you think you do not have enough low bass, you can still add a sub afterwards.
Or you can go a other route, and use a MTM design, with PHL 2460 , which seems to be great midrange, and use a 15" below :
Ground Sound
seems you've searched alot these Beyma drivers. what is your idea about a 3-way using 12p80nd + TPL-150H + 15 or 18 incher? do you think using Beyma products (in case of a good construction) will result in a sound which can compete with expensive commercial speakers?
Something like the Daniel Hertz M1 ?
at these pictures, it seems the 12" midrange has a ripped cone, so that would not be the 12p80nd.
?????? ??Daniel Hertz??????_HIFIDIY ?????
If i had to start a new project from scratch, i would go a other route....
You can check this thread, where i collected many different designs with TPL-150:
Beyma Tpl-150 - Audio Voice Acoustics
Here is something I threw together in a few days for a party we just had. Neighbours eventually called on Securitas which I just take as a compliment. One would think student houses on a Saturday night before 23:00 would more lenient. My JBL E-120 with 2204H recone lie sulking in a corner next to these 1950's green delights.
One horsepower bass is every man's God given right.
One horsepower bass is every man's God given right.
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I fell in love with both drivers on separate occiasions and just felt they would be a neat fit. At a subconscious level I may have thought in the way you describe. I could not believe my ears when I first heard it. The crossover is 1st order at 2000Hz. I made a very cheap but powerful subwoofer by connecting a HX 1000 watt PSU on one rail to a 600W car amp. The other rail still has enough juice to power my Intel i5, GeForce GTX 560 Ti computer that played Spotify yesterday night at the party. I ended up with wire thickness of 0.8 cm from the PSU so the cables do not get hot at all. It has 30A fuses in the cable, the one rail from the PSU is good for 40A and the amp has rated 25A fuses, so I feel safe. I started smelling burning plastic last night when we were playing at 50% of what the car amp can produce, but the sub driver is pretty cheap. It must be broken in now! Just built this for a party, and I am usually really into horns, but I will keep it because it sounds so good. GF can have it.
Annoyingly the black cone that is sitting on the sub in the photo is producing equally good sound, if not cleaner! Without Jantzen coils and without a fancy cabinet. The big difference is the ultra-smooth highs from the TPL-150.
Annoyingly the black cone that is sitting on the sub in the photo is producing equally good sound, if not cleaner! Without Jantzen coils and without a fancy cabinet. The big difference is the ultra-smooth highs from the TPL-150.
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Hi Gordan
some time ago you said you ordered TPL. I never read you got it ,and your impressions.....
i got it long time ago.
didn't spend much time with it, except for some preliminary measuring in a stock (H) form in a friend's lab and also listening of a raw driver. interesting but not fully my cup of tea - i generally dislike planar/foil/whatever drivers but i hoped that the fact it's originally a PA driver would bring more dynamics/microdynamics. i'm afraid i still have strong preference for good horns. TPL IMHO doesn't cover both things. nothing bad in fact, but i'm not convinced it's a driver that can do everything as it was hyped.
but i would certainly restrain from final conclusions before i try some ideas. unfortunately i have no an appropriate horn for vitavox S3 which i have to try it in 450-2k range (and i would prefer a OSWG over any other profile for this purpose).
beyma needs to be fortified with something sounding much more dynamic and kicking in lower mid. also i wouldn't match it with a current low mid/ mid bass drivers. could be a matter of taste but it will just sound too unforgiving. it needs a driver with much more tonal colors than it originally has.
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I like both hornloaded compression driver tweeters and the TPL 150. In a hornless system the TPL 150 really shined. In a horn system I still preferred a hornloaded compression driver because they blend in better with the other horns.
I agree that a colourful mid driver sounds great with the TPL. A light weight vintage fullrange driver below 2kHz is wonderful. I did miss the brutal power and ruggedness of the JBL E-120 at the party when sound levels reached PA. Almost abusive to such a delicate driver as the greencone.
I agree that a colourful mid driver sounds great with the TPL. A light weight vintage fullrange driver below 2kHz is wonderful. I did miss the brutal power and ruggedness of the JBL E-120 at the party when sound levels reached PA. Almost abusive to such a delicate driver as the greencone.
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happy to hear that, it goes along my findings. i've even bought 4 60s oval drivers to see what i can get out of them with TPL. in fact, as it seems that a dipole operation is preferred for TPL driver, all those vintage mid drivers are designed to play in some sort of baffle so i would be curious to hear saba greencone mid/bass naked with TPL.
how do you compensate for a difference in sensitivity between saba and TPL? also what bass do you have bellow greencone?
I used a 3.3 Ohm resistor. The treble is not too forward at all. But you should find your own value. The resistors are cheap. It is the caps and the coils that are expensive. Minidsp is a great way to get to know your drivers.
That bass is a ridiculously simple 40L vented subwoofer with a 12" MGR speaker that I found new for €35. Made the neighbors across the street call Securitas at ten on a saturday. Yesterday we watched The Road and it has some really nice earthquake scenes. Fun stuff!
Compared to my Eminence LAB12 it lacks that professional tone, but it is a pure movie/party sub.
Highs are better with the TPL-150 run as dipole but it loses strength around 2-3kHz. This is the great thing about the TPL, to be able to reach so low, compared to a true ribbon that sounds kind of wimpy. I have yet to hear a RAAL ribbon driver tho.
If the TPL is in open baffle, then the rest should be too. Fullrange drivers in open baffle sound open and nice, but lose so much midbass. I saw one project where he ran the greencone in open baffle, and he crossed it at 300Hz... This is not how I prefer to use a mid cone driver. Why would I want a XO point at 300Hz? That sounds like a terrible idea.
I don't get as much midbass as from the JBL E-120, but a greencone has plenty of sweet midbass to offer as long as you don't run it open baffle.
Another thing, greencones love resonance boxes. :O Those are an acquired taste and difficult to get right. I don't know if my box qualifies as a resonance box. I used no mineral wool inside and I glued the solid wood with no screws or anything. Has a nice ring to it. And the design is surprisingly GF-friendly. She likes to just sit at look at it. Doesn't even matter if it is playing music.
The treble is not too forward at all. But you should find your own value. The resistors are cheap. It is the caps and the coils that are expensive. Minidsp is a great way to get to know your drivers.That bass is a ridiculously simple 40L vented subwoofer with a 12" MGR speaker that I found new for €35. Made the neighbors across the street call Securitas at ten on a saturday.
Yesterday we watched The Road and it has some really nice earthquake scenes. Fun stuff! Compared to my Eminence LAB12 it lacks that professional tone, but it is a pure movie/party sub.
Highs are better with the TPL-150 run as dipole but it loses strength around 2-3kHz. This is the great thing about the TPL, to be able to reach so low, compared to a true ribbon that sounds kind of wimpy. I have yet to hear a RAAL ribbon driver tho.
If the TPL is in open baffle, then the rest should be too. Fullrange drivers in open baffle sound open and nice, but lose so much midbass. I saw one project where he ran the greencone in open baffle, and he crossed it at 300Hz... This is not how I prefer to use a mid cone driver. Why would I want a XO point at 300Hz? That sounds like a terrible idea.
I don't get as much midbass as from the JBL E-120, but a greencone has plenty of sweet midbass to offer as long as you don't run it open baffle.
Another thing, greencones love resonance boxes. :O Those are an acquired taste and difficult to get right. I don't know if my box qualifies as a resonance box. I used no mineral wool inside and I glued the solid wood with no screws or anything. Has a nice ring to it. And the design is surprisingly GF-friendly. She likes to just sit at look at it. Doesn't even matter if it is playing music.
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Great build. How would you describe the midrange from the liberty-8 compared to other midranges you have heard? Does the smaller AMT really help that much above 10k? You can answer when you have had a listen ofc. Try a passive XO later. The 4x10hd did not have the magic that the 1st order passive XO had. Opamps vs old school: 0-1.
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