Inherent Design Question: Inherent sonic characteristics that cant be measured? - Page 3 - diyAudio
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Old 6th March 2013, 02:02 PM   #21
DavidL is offline DavidL  United States
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We can measure everything relevant in a speaker except the builder's ego and the reviewer's pompous self importance and ability to use audio terms like "blacker backgrounds" or "pace", etc. to muddle up how the speaker actually sounds.
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Old 6th March 2013, 02:02 PM   #22
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Ken Kantor has a different view on objective measurements. Click on the link below and download his attached .pdf file that contains a very large list of ongoing research that was going on at the time (some 5 or so years ago) in the subject area.

Towards Objective Measurements of Sound - The Kitchen - The Classic Speaker Pages Discussion Forums

Some years ago Robert Harley wrote an article in Sterophile that attempted to describe the large glossary of subjective audio terms used by those with interest in audio. There are many there that are still unmeasureable.
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Old 6th March 2013, 02:28 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by speakerdoctor View Post
Some years ago Robert Harley wrote an article in Sterophile that attempted to describe the large glossary of subjective audio terms used by those with interest in audio. There are many there that are still unmeasureable.
And many of these are not repeatable from one reviewer to another or under ABX conditions
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Old 6th March 2013, 02:39 PM   #24
DavidL is offline DavidL  United States
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Robert Harley? Stereophile? That's two strikes already. Yes I'm well familiar with their "glossary" it's a sad attempt at vindicating their own self worth and ineptness when it comes to doing an honest review. Subjective, isn't the same as measurable nor is it even close to even being real at times.
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Old 6th March 2013, 02:44 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by DavidL View Post
Robert Harley? Stereophile? That's two strikes already. Yes I'm well familiar with their "glossary" it's a sad attempt at vindicating their own self worth and ineptness when it comes to doing an honest review. Subjective, isn't the same as measurable nor is it even close to even being real at times.
A bit of history.....

About 60 yrs ago, frequency response was among the myriad of subjective terms used prior to the development of measurement technology.

While I agree R.H. is one of the ultimate subjectivists (his mag. doesn't publish measurements), some of what he says will indeed come to pass as measurable characteristics.
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Old 6th March 2013, 03:45 PM   #26
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Very Impressive! Yikes! Need more time to read the links.

One problem is the word Subjective.. If It dosent show up on a paper but enough experienced Listeners are hearing it, then it is the actual sound and the word subjective can be illiminated.. Problem is we will need everyone to get together for a long period in one place, including listeners and sience people and come up to speed on each one experiences..Unfortunatley the nonbelievers will be dissapointed.. My house is to small though Until measurements become perfect I dont see another way..
Also, you cant lie because your embarrassed because your hearing something you didnt think possible previously.. This would throw off the study..
Lets add a lie detector test.. Darn, we a need measurement equipment to prove this machine is accurate...
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Old 6th March 2013, 04:03 PM   #27
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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Originally Posted by davidsrsb View Post
There is no way two ideal speakers can give height clues that are not there in the original recording (floor and ceiling echoes maybe)
Do you mean that speakers can't reproduce it if it's there, or that stereo recordings don't contain it?
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Old 6th March 2013, 06:02 PM   #28
DavidL is offline DavidL  United States
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Originally Posted by speakerdoctor View Post

While I agree R.H. is one of the ultimate subjectivists (his mag. doesn't publish measurements), some of what he says will indeed come to pass as measurable characteristics.
Pure conjecture and please give us some examples of his "wisdom"
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Old 6th March 2013, 07:58 PM   #29
croseiv is offline croseiv  United States
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Yes there are sonic characteristic that can't be measured (accurately). Also there are sonic characteristics that can't be recorded accurately or reproduced accurately. It is immediately obvious to me when I hear live musical intruments. There is a quality present that can't be recorded or captured. It is a time and space issue and the way we perceive things. Live is uncompressed (fully lossless). Any recording or measurement is lossy and will change the quality of the sound.

Last edited by croseiv; 6th March 2013 at 08:08 PM.
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Old 6th March 2013, 08:58 PM   #30
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The question was:
Quote:
Is there sonic characteristics generated from a driver that cant be quantified with todays best equipment and software?
1. This is true.
2. I have a setup that qualifies for investigations as the measured results are as close as two independent drivers can be, but one are "destroyed" to a level where there are more audible noise / distortion than sound..

If I get time and passion I can record two audio files (mic -> ADC (384k/32bit)) and compare. This could be very interesting as traditional measurement tools tell that both the SPL and THD from 20Hz to 20kHz for both units are similar...
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