Inherent Design Question: Inherent sonic characteristics that cant be measured? - Page 24 - diyAudio
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Old 20th April 2013, 04:28 AM   #231
fas42 is offline fas42  Australia
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Originally Posted by Generic George View Post
There's been a LOT of research and improvements in knowledge, skills and manufacturing when it comes to audio.

We have these things, called "Computers" (no not the guys who do math for you). You can right this moment buy a "Computer" and a "Microphone" which will work together to give you just about all the information you could want about audio signals. They can display them in all SORTs of pretty ways and with all sorts of analysis.

In fact we can combine the two and even attempt to use that information to minimize the effects of the room on an audio signal.
Sorry, this is not what I'm talking about. That "pretty" information does not clarify the subtleties that cause the sound to work, or not work, in a quality sense for many people. Yes, some people are more sensitive to lower level defects in the sound than others, but that should not prevent the research being done to understand what causes those issues in the sound, and resolving them. Just saying they don't exist as an audible problem for a major segment of listeners, the less critical shall we say, is not good enough ...

The fact that some of the most highly regarded audio systems are based on technology that's 50, 60, 70 years old should give the game away. Engineering that is that "primitive" gets key things right, that the latest and greatest components don't achieve for a large number of listeners. Or do listeners have to be trained, conditioned to "understand" and appreciate that the modern audio is correct, because our measurements are telling us so ...



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If I thought you weren't simply yanking our chain with these ludicrous statements, I'd bother to explain this to you too. As is I'll leave you with just one example.

$2,200 HDMI cable
Missing the point: where are the ads for a 12" B&W round CRT TV which will deliver "videophile" quality picture? You did note that I used the words "essentially" and "little" - I wasn't absolute in my statements - didn't you? ... I didn't box myself in entirely ...

The point is, that the video componentry is based on the latest thinking and developments by large corporations, and not filled with kitchen style engineering from enthusiasts. When was the last time you saw ads for someone to mod your TV, tinker with the internals to "fix" the deficiencies left by the manufacturer?

The fancy cable companies just see a handy offshoot appearing and take advantage of that, using their "reputation" from the audio world; these companies wouldn't exist if there weren't audio "issues".
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Last edited by fas42; 20th April 2013 at 04:33 AM.
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Old 20th April 2013, 08:09 AM   #232
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Earl, here's an article that might be worth a read: Klirrfaktor - wie viel ist zu viel?

It's from a german DIY online magazine, unfortunately all results are only available for customers. Summary: they took the Zwicker masking curves (ISO 532), developed a program that calculates the masking effects and created many curves of distortion vs. frequency vs. level. At the bottom of the page is an example for F2 (K2 in german). The results show good correlation to those found out by intensive practical testing.
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Old 20th April 2013, 02:59 PM   #233
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If I had an amplifier that, when stimulated with the correct combination of load and signal, wobbled or spontaneously generated a small 'chirp' in amongst the signal at its output, what would be the best test to show this up?

(Sorry to temporarily drag the topic off speaker drivers)
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Old 20th April 2013, 07:49 PM   #234
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Earl, here's an article that might be worth a read:
Not being able to read it I didn't get much out of it.
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Old 20th April 2013, 08:31 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by CopperTop View Post
If I had an amplifier that, when stimulated with the correct combination of load and signal, wobbled or spontaneously generated a small 'chirp' in amongst the signal at its output, what would be the best test to show this up?

(Sorry to temporarily drag the topic off speaker drivers)
I don't mean I really have such an amplifier, but if I did, would the fault show up in a test, or might it be one of those cases where a 'golden ears' would spot it, but the tests draw a blank? i.e. an inherent sonic characteristic that can't be measured?
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Old 20th April 2013, 08:44 PM   #236
SY is offline SY  United States
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It would absolutely show up in testing, at least if you do the sort of testing that engineers do (e.g., look at impulse response into reactive loads, look at overload recovery...) rather than the cartoon measurements (THD at one frequency and power only, using a resistor load) beloved of the irrational crowd.
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Old 20th April 2013, 09:23 PM   #237
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Not being able to read it I didn't get much out of it.
Yeah, too bad it's in German and restricted. I'll talk to them, maybe they'll provide a translated version. But the analytical approach is quite impressive to me.
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Old 20th April 2013, 09:45 PM   #238
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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It looks a lot like the approach that we used, except they are looking at standard THD measurements and how masking would affect those (from what I could tell) and we looked at a new measurement that used the same masking philosophy. They showed % audibility versus frequency at different SPLs, but I have to assume that the % was THD. That's fine as long as the shape of the non linearity does not change, but it will fail if the shape does change. That is the point of what we did. You cannot just look at a symptom of the nonlinearity like THD and IMD does, you have to look at the nonlinearity itself because different shapes can have the same THD and sound dramatically different. It is the shape that counts. THD does not account for shape in any way. It is blind to the most audible aspects of the problem.
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Old 20th April 2013, 10:23 PM   #239
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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I am very surprised that you are unaware of this work.
I"m aware of a lot of work on distortion going back to the 1920s, I've read some of your papers, too. Most of the work I know shows that a single percentage number for distortion doesn't tell you the audibility, you have to know more about the harmonic structure and other details to know how audible the distortion is.

I assume that's what you meant in your post, but was not sure, so I asked.
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Old 20th April 2013, 11:57 PM   #240
Ronion is offline Ronion  United States
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Default Shape of nonlinearity?

What do you mean by the shape of the nonlinearity? Like if the shape is the same as the trigger?

Thanks! Danke!
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