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Old 3rd April 2013, 07:45 AM   #111
lolo is offline lolo  France
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juhazi View Post
By the way I'm wondering if AINO will have too much directivity to my taste!?
a lot of people would like to have that problem, I think..
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Old 3rd April 2013, 01:12 PM   #112
Juhazi is offline Juhazi  Finland
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ScottG, appreciated! Please follow my measurements and give more comments as I progress.

Here are the 0¤/60¤ measurements of Beyma 12"
MSLifeCam, REW 150ms, 512kb

The 60¤ shows quite consistently 6-10dB reduction of spl for both Beyma and Vifa - good news! Also easy to match to NeoCD3.5 (directivity-wise)
Attached Images
File Type: png 12mwnd raw 150ms.png (111.4 KB, 325 views)
File Type: png 12mwnd raw 150ms smooth.png (78.3 KB, 321 views)
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Last edited by Juhazi; 3rd April 2013 at 01:34 PM.
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Old 3rd April 2013, 06:40 PM   #113
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juhazi View Post
ScottG, appreciated! Please follow my measurements and give more comments as I progress.

Here are the 0¤/60¤ measurements of Beyma 12"
MSLifeCam, REW 150ms, 512kb

The 60¤ shows quite consistently 6-10dB reduction of spl for both Beyma and Vifa - good news! Also easy to match to NeoCD3.5 (directivity-wise)

I could be wrong, but I think you are getting to much gain from the rear of the 12" from the loading on top of the bottom cabinet (or the white bass-board you have to stabilize the 12" on the top of the bottom cabinet).

I'd try raising-up the 12" driver about 4" from its base and use about 3" of Rockwool on that base (with a 1" air-gap between Rockwool pad and bottom of 12" driver).

That should give a more uniform response in that 400-800 Hz range.

Otherwise everything else looks pretty good so far.


I particularly like the use of the minidsp - a very wise decision for a project like this (..both for performance and value).
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Last edited by ScottG; 3rd April 2013 at 06:45 PM.
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Old 4th April 2013, 04:13 AM   #114
puppet is offline puppet  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottG View Post
I could be wrong, but I think you are getting to much gain from the rear of the 12" from the loading on top of the bottom cabinet (or the white bass-board you have to stabilize the 12" on the top of the bottom cabinet).

I'd try raising-up the 12" driver about 4" from its base and use about 3" of Rockwool on that base (with a 1" air-gap between Rockwool pad and bottom of 12" driver).

That should give a more uniform response in that 400-800 Hz range.

Otherwise everything else looks pretty good so far.


I particularly like the use of the minidsp - a very wise decision for a project like this (..both for performance and value).
ScottG ... I think that response is fairly typical of a naked 12" driver. Juhazi will most likely need a 4.0 Q notch of around 4db @720hz or so to get it balanced.
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Old 4th April 2013, 06:31 AM   #115
Juhazi is offline Juhazi  Finland
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Puppet,
how could a notch filter take care of a notch in direct response and a hump at 550Hz in 60¤ response? Notice that this is a typical dipole response if we disregard the small irregularities. Minidsp takes care of "straightening" the dipole-curve.

When I get the calibrated mic I'll make new measurements and try to find out what causes this. It is at a very "popular" frequency! Matt treatment is easy, lifting the driver makes the final speaker taller. The final speaker will have a round "table" under the 12" driver, without a separate turntable board.

It was quite tricky to get a "good-looking" nearfield response from the 12". It makes such a big cavity with lots of resonances

The FedEx tracking showed that U-MIK and miniDSP delivery was tried at 2. April. I contacted them by phone and now they promised a new delivery for tomorrow. They are a very small "player" here and service is bad.
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Last edited by Juhazi; 4th April 2013 at 06:34 AM.
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Old 4th April 2013, 12:11 PM   #116
Rudolf is offline Rudolf  Germany
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Juhazi,
your measurement of the 15" driver follows the theory almost completely:

aino 1.gif

You see the dipole peak at ~700 Hz and the light dip at ~1.2 kHz. The "natural" thing to do would be applying a first order lowpass at 100 Hz. This will level out the rising response to the dipole peak and start a downward slope above the peak. A notch filter would always go along whith a phase wiggle and you don't want to have that if it is not necessary.

Let's not get too finicky about small response wiggles at different angles. You already see how the small dent in the 0° response could be compensated by the small peak in the 60° response. These are things which should finally be judged by ear and not by measured curves.

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Old 4th April 2013, 12:48 PM   #117
puppet is offline puppet  United States
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Juhazi ... like Rudolf said, this is a listening adjustment.

I have a frame of naked drivers being listened to right now. A 15", a 12" and the heil .... debating on adding a 6" I have on hand. At any rate, for me, using a 3rd order bessel HP/LP @ 140hz(w) 184hz(m) between the 15" and the 12" does help level the roll off of the 12" .... fills in the frequencies around 300hz nicely. They are still a couple db down but I'd rather have that than too much energy in this range. Makes voices sound stressed. I'm listening at about 15-20* off axis and still find a need for the 2-4db notch around 700hz .... my listening preference (with music).

As ScottG suggested, the top of the box might be adding a wiggle in the response graphs here and there ... and that would be a design compromise. 1db this way or that won't spoil the party though.

Last edited by puppet; 4th April 2013 at 12:51 PM.
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Old 4th April 2013, 06:18 PM   #118
Juhazi is offline Juhazi  Finland
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I am far from listening adjustments...

Here is a sweep with L, LM and HM drivers playing without any eq or level adjustment. Same equipment as earlier, 80cm mic on shoulder,

SPL 150ms, 1/6 smoothing
decay 150 and 300ms (my room is dull, RT30= 0,2 - 0,3).
Attached Images
File Type: png aino proto whmhm raw.png (49.3 KB, 271 views)
File Type: png aino proto decay.png (128.8 KB, 267 views)
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Old 4th April 2013, 06:24 PM   #119
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puppet View Post
ScottG ... I think that response is fairly typical of a naked 12" driver. Juhazi will most likely need a 4.0 Q notch of around 4db @720hz or so to get it balanced.
I was more concerned with the off-axis response - most easily seen in the 12MWnd 1/6th smoothed freq. response (blue line vs. dark green), 450 Hz to 750 Hz.
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Old 4th April 2013, 07:15 PM   #120
Juhazi is offline Juhazi  Finland
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ScottG, yep I was thinking of the same discrepancies!

First version of miniDSP xo curves

180Hz BW 12dB
800Hz BW18db
3500Hz BW24db

PEQ used for dipole correction 9db Q=1
LM 400Hz
HM 800Hz
Attached Images
File Type: png AINO dsp 1.png (66.3 KB, 252 views)
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Last edited by Juhazi; 4th April 2013 at 07:25 PM.
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