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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 4th March 2013, 10:06 PM   #11
JMFahey is offline JMFahey  Argentina
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Fully agree.
In fact, sorry for this, but passion does NOT replace proper Technical Knowledge and proper Lab equipment.
This Forum, as many others, is chock full of passionate individuals .... many with little beyond than Passion or Faith to back their claims up.
Sorry.

Maybe being an Engineer with actual design and manufacturing experience for 43 years (and counting) has made me a skeptic of what can not be backed by Math, measurements or, worst case, double blind testing.
Oh well.
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Old 5th March 2013, 12:07 AM   #12
Dissi is offline Dissi  Switzerland
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For comparison.

Simulation of CT260:

CT260.jpg

Simulation of CT246:

CT246.jpg

Simulation of CC95:

CC95.jpg
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Old 5th March 2013, 03:14 AM   #13
JMFahey is offline JMFahey  Argentina
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Impressive.
CC95 is the smoothest, pity it does not reach that low.
Can't you combine 260 woofer with CC95 tweeter?.
All 3 very good and reasonably efficient.
Thanks for posting.
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Old 5th March 2013, 04:23 AM   #14
Jay is offline Jay  Indonesia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMFahey View Post
In fact, sorry for this, but passion does NOT replace proper Technical Knowledge and proper Lab equipment.
Passion will lead you to proper technical knowledge and lab equipment.

You CAN design a speaker in one hour, one day, one month or one year. All will sound acceptable to most ears. OTOH, passionate people will not build speaker in one hour. Often there are iterations. This is why passion has been mentioned.

Business minds OTOH, often take different routes. Often, good businessman is not a good technician and vice versa.

BTW, I knew that it would sound harsh. But I knew that some people would say the opposite. So all in all, it is what internet information supposed to be. It helps others who has the skill to separate valid information from invalid ones. The key is in tagging those who brings the information. And it helps me too from reading others' information
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Old 5th March 2013, 05:57 AM   #15
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Nice data Dissi! I couldnt find or dont have access to that. I agree the CC95 looks rather good, penalty being the 70hz roll off.

To the original poster, there are several CT kits using the smooth CP134 in the CC95, and 2 of CP168 for bass, probably overbudget though. If i get chance ill post their links but you may have seen them already.
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Old 5th March 2013, 06:26 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMFahey View Post
Fully agree.
In fact, sorry for this, but passion does NOT replace proper Technical Knowledge and proper Lab equipment.
This Forum, as many others, is chock full of passionate individuals .... many with little beyond than Passion or Faith to back their claims up.
Sorry.

Maybe being an Engineer with actual design and manufacturing experience for 43 years (and counting) has made me a skeptic of what can not be backed by Math, measurements or, worst case, double blind testing.
Oh well.

Hi JM. Seeing you notice the people with passion or faith cant back up their claims . Would you please like to tell us what design and manufacturing expirience you have had. Especially in the audio field as that is why we are here as hobbyists Lots of us looking for that tempory audio nirvana.

Ps i like to listen to my music not watch it on a display screen..Is not passion the driving Force for DIY Audio. I wonder what the engineer to hobbyist ratio is on this site is .. At a guess i would say it is very very small.. Majority Rules.... Engineers however are very welcome as we have a use for you LOL

Kindest Regards Mark
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Old 5th March 2013, 08:04 AM   #17
Jay is offline Jay  Indonesia
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Originally Posted by mondogenerator View Post
Nice data Dissi! I couldnt find or dont have access to that.
Problem is, such graphs don't tell anything. If the graphs are accurate, what a poor design the first 2 designs are.

If you want access to such graphs, just download the FRD and ZMA files of the drivers used. Then from the site you can easily reverse-engineer the crossover (from the technical data and the component list).

Again, such graphs tell almost nothing. But if you are familiar with the drivers then you will know more.
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Old 5th March 2013, 09:39 AM   #18
JMFahey is offline JMFahey  Argentina
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Hi Mark.
To begin with, I'm not that black and white, I recognize that some people with passion can back their claims , and we all know their names .
And I mean, say, Peter Jensen, James B. Lansing, H.H. Scott, Matti Ottala, ...... I could name thousands of illustrious names, including our dear Nelson Pass.
So don't put words in my mouth that Passion=cr*p because it's not so.

But many can't, so we find tons of people , often in Forums, with very passionate views, who get into heated arguments with each other, but can offer little else, and retort to "I can hear things you don't".
Against which there's not much arguing, it often becomes an article of Faith.

Not my cup of tea.

If you look at my postings, I am always the boring "feet on the ground" guy who tries to help people, among other things, to actually build stuff, use commercially available parts, etc. and to "walk before you run".

As of training, I am an Industrial Engineer who, parallel to University studies, started building PA and Musical Instrument Amplifiers in 1969 and have never stopped.
Beginning with cloning Fender and Ampeg , and then, as studies progressed, designing my own.

Also added 2 years of Electronics Engineering because my teen age Hobby turned into a Career and then 1 year of Business Administration and I needed both, to design my own and to handle the disgusting but necessary $$$ side.
Which includes Taxes, Salaries, Financing, Cost Estimates, workers social Laws/retirement plans/Health Coverage which are obligatory by Law in Argentina.

Most "pure Engineers" are great at the Lab or the design table (which now is a PC but when I started was an actual drawing table with parallel rulers, and the "printer" was thin pencil and Rotring applied India Ink) but fail miserably at the $$$ side of things or have to work for a Corporation, cursing and bitching at the "bean counters" who kill their creativity.

Well, I made my own small company and am my own bean counter, how's that ?

What I achieved is nothing compared to World giants such as Fender, Marshall, Peavey and other heavyweights but I'm a force to be considered in Argentina and neighbouring Countries, plus selling amplifiers in all of America and even some in Spain, France, Italy and Holland.

How many?
Lost count at around 10000 (yes, ten thousand, it's not a typo) some 10/15 years ago, when an Argentine Crisis (one of many) made me lose my Factory.

Started again of course (can't do anything else and never ever worked for a salary) in a smaller scale, with just 1 or 2 workers.

Now I'm semi retired, and on my free time hang out in Tech Forums (where else ) , both helping whomever I can and learning.
Yes, still learning, of course, you can never stop.

I could hold for so long (and still do) because I've always had a strong diversified Industrial base, way beyond mere Electronics, which allowed me to design and make my own custom parts, such as:

1) I design, silkscreen, etch, drill and populate my own PCBs

2) design and wind my own transformers

3) cut, bend, punch, chemically treat, paint and silkscreen my own chassis and panels.
Have shears, folders, sheet metal punchers, mechanical press dies, riveters, bench drills, hot air painting and drying cabin, paint curing oven, etc.

Used to have my own Zinc Galvanizing tanks, but sold them after 1 month for fear of Lung Cancer.
Which, by the way, and ex Partner is fighting now
Incredibly toxic fumes.

Still have the Phosphatizing tanks.
Also toxic but as long as I don't drink it and use heavy gloves, no problem.

4) do in house all Carpentry, Tolexing and cabinet finishing, for speakers and Electronics.

Used to have a resin + fiberglass spraying machine to cover PA cabinets, but lost it in a fire and never bought another.
It also had terrible fumes and MEK passes through any realistic mask, eating your lungs and brain.

5) design and build my own speakers.
Not speaker cabinets but the speakers themselves.

Stamp frames, stamp and turn disks, polepieces, build the speakers, wind my own voice coils, etc.

I subcontract some of the jobs "outside", such as stamping.

I have bought many machines along the time, they always paid for themselves, sooner or later, but a 60 to 250 Ton hydraulic press is a little too much, even for me , so I rent one by the hour at a Car Parts Factory.

And as I said, I'm happy to have somebody else Galvanize for me.

What kind of stuff I make?:
Guitar/Bass/Keyboard/PA/battery portable amplifiers, speaker cabinets, Studio equipment (such as earphone monitoring systems, with 8 to 20 stereo headphone outputs), preamps and built in electronics for crazy instruments, from Sticks to Stereo Bass to Classic Piano pickup systems to Violin or Harmonica dedicated Amps to .... you name it.

Plus specialized PA systems for the Buenos Aires and the Rosario Planetarium, the Moscow Circus, Broadway type Theaters, etc.

If you get into my FB page, you'll see 95% of my Friends have a Guitar or Bass hanging from their necks, are sitting at a keyboard or are Recording Studio, Radio or TV Techs.
And if you were Argentine, you'd recognize most of them as the Who's Who of Argentine Musicians for the last 40 years.

Well, I gess that's enough for now.

EDIT: I forgot: I have built and still use 2 magnetizers (couldn't make speakers otherwise) with capacity up to 150mm Ferrite rings, which allows me to make Celestion and Eminence/Jensen type speakers.
Now I'm making a larger one, capacitive discharge type, for 190/225mm rings, (to clone large PA type EV/JBL/etc.) and start experimenting with NEO magnets.

Last edited by JMFahey; 5th March 2013 at 09:50 AM. Reason: Poor memory
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Old 5th March 2013, 10:41 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Jay View Post
Problem is, such graphs don't tell anything. If the graphs are accurate, what a poor design the first 2 designs are.

If you want access to such graphs, just download the FRD and ZMA files of the drivers used. Then from the site you can easily reverse-engineer the crossover (from the technical data and the component list).

Again, such graphs tell almost nothing. But if you are familiar with the drivers then you will know more.
the graphs are as telling as the majority of data shown here in most threads. The THD data earlier in the thread shows the mission CP168 to be better than the price suggests. The Tweeters, as I said, are an unknown to me. Does this data tell you subjectively how they 'feel'? No. I agree with that, but then no measure can. Data is a means to pre-assess a measure of their sound, as in all cases. Dont understand what there is to get het up about. The CC95 looks rather good, since i have the woofs, i may have to buy the Audophon tweets and build them myself, as i am confident in the missions, having heard them. Frd and zma are not available for the missions, data is scarce other than what is here. The visatons though, different matter, it would be simple to sim to add phase, polars and sound power to the other data. FWIW i dont like the cone tweets used but polars may just redeem them. CC95 is my favourite for that reason.
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Last edited by mondogenerator; 5th March 2013 at 10:50 AM.
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Old 5th March 2013, 11:04 AM   #20
Jay is offline Jay  Indonesia
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Originally Posted by mondogenerator View Post
The CC95 looks rather good, since i have the woofs, i may have to buy the Audophon tweets and build them myself, as i am confident in the missions, having heard them. Frd and zma are not available for the missions, data is scarce other than what is here. The visatons though, different matter, it would be simple to sim to add phase, polars and sound power to the other data.
What have you built with the woofers? It is not difficult to produce your own ZMA and FRD if you have the mic. Measuring your own drivers is one step above using "standard" charts. Surprisingly, many cheap products have loose QC. Two drivers may completely measured and sounded different.

If you are familiar with your stuff (such as the woofer), you will know what will happen when they are given an arbitrary filters, such as used by the CC95.

If I have drivers and want to make a speaker, first thing I do is to find all available design on the net using the drivers and try to better them. In your case, I would have been familiar with how the CC95 may sound. Most known designers will come up with similar solution because it is not difficult to model each after each and come up with similar conclusion.
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