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-   -   Looking for a mid/woofer to match with a RAAL tweeter (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/231056-looking-mid-woofer-match-raal-tweeter.html)

falconsprint 28th February 2013 08:58 PM

Looking for a mid/woofer to match with a RAAL tweeter
 
I'm looking for a quality midrange/woofer to match with the RAAL 140-15D tweeter. The two will initially be put in a Dayton Audio prebuilt enclosure (or similar) and crossed over with a pair of subwoofers around 80-120hz. Eventually I will build a three-way enclosure and add a true woofer. The midrange/woofer will also need to work in a MTM alignment as a center channel, also in a prebuilt Dayton Audio enclosure. For crossover I'll be using the DEQX HDP-4. The tweeter crossover will be 2500-3000hz and probably 96db/octave. The speakers will be used for music as well as home theater so they will need to handle the high SPL demands of movie sound tracks.

I'm looking for recommendations on a midrange/woofer that will match well with the RAAL at the crossover frequency and can be equalized flat to at least 120hz in a 0.75 or 1.00 cubic foot cabinet. One of the characteristics of the RAAL that I'm trying to extend down to the midrange is the excellent polar response. I'd also prefer a driver available for purchase in the USA.

I'm experienced with active speakers for the last three years using the GroundSound DCN24 and now the DEQX. To date I've been using the NHT M60 and M80 speakers. This will be my first attempt at selecting my own drivers and building my own speaker. Using the prebuilt enclosures will give me time to evaluate the drivers and crossovers before deciding on the final 3-way drivers and full range cabinet.

studiotech 1st March 2013 03:29 AM

Well, I kinda sound like a broken record about this, but you would be hard pressed to much better than the Neo10 since you are going active and funky freq response is not as much of an issue if you are trying passive. I have also successfully used the 70-20 and the smaller, but new version of the Neo8-S which can play lower. Only problem is that you really ought to get off of the Neo10 by about 250Hz or so, sooooooo....maybe not for you. If you use two Neo10 per side like me and you do not listen too loud, then you might get away with a 120Hz crossover temporarily. I tried mine that low on OB and they sounded very nice, but were dynamically limited. In a box it still might be your best choice. You could arrange them side by side onto a 10" square basically. Will that fit the PE cabinet?

How about a nice 18 Sound 6ND430?

6ND430 - LF Neodymium Driver

Although, now that I think about it, it wants to cross higher than that too. You'v got a tough task. To cross up at 3KHz and as low as 80Hz AND keep the sensitivity up is not easy. But I agree, that you should not cross the 140-15 any lower than 2.5-3KHz.

I would say go three way right from the start. Whatever you pick that will fit the role now, will be less than ideal once you add a woofer. Of course there are more hi-fi style drivers that would work better, but then it's such a shame to throw away good, free SPL on the Raal by adding some 88dB/SPL 6" Scan speak or something. How about a custom AT driver with extra high sensitivity? Will be pricey, but if you're already committed to the Raal, then you've got to keep up the quality anyway.

Greg

ScottG 1st March 2013 05:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by falconsprint (Post 3390035)
I'm looking for a quality midrange/woofer to match with the RAAL 140-15D tweeter. The two will initially be put in a Dayton Audio prebuilt enclosure (or similar) and crossed over with a pair of subwoofers around 80-120hz. Eventually I will build a three-way enclosure and add a true woofer. The midrange/woofer will also need to work in a MTM alignment as a center channel, also in a prebuilt Dayton Audio enclosure. For crossover I'll be using the DEQX HDP-4. The tweeter crossover will be 2500-3000hz and probably 96db/octave. The speakers will be used for music as well as home theater so they will need to handle the high SPL demands of movie sound tracks.

I'm looking for recommendations on a midrange/woofer that will match well with the RAAL at the crossover frequency and can be equalized flat to at least 120hz in a 0.75 or 1.00 cubic foot cabinet. One of the characteristics of the RAAL that I'm trying to extend down to the midrange is the excellent polar response. I'd also prefer a driver available for purchase in the USA.

I'm experienced with active speakers for the last three years using the GroundSound DCN24 and now the DEQX. To date I've been using the NHT M60 and M80 speakers. This will be my first attempt at selecting my own drivers and building my own speaker. Using the prebuilt enclosures will give me time to evaluate the drivers and crossovers before deciding on the final 3-way drivers and full range cabinet.


What you are looking for then is a small diameter driver with good excursion for it's sd and good thermal behavior.

Because it's active, efficiency isn't really an issue unless you are limiting yourself with respect to amplification.


You should also look to clean initial decay and overall low mms with a wide dispersion polar response up higher in the midrange/lower treble.

I'll recommend the Jordan JX92S (with measurements provided on Zaphaudio website in the 5" category).

Not cheap.. but then again it has a combination of virtues that mesh well with your plan (without any substantial flaws):

Unshielded JX92

falconsprint 1st March 2013 05:58 AM

Perhaps I should do some listening tests with my subwoofers to see how they sound above 120hz. They are NHT S80s. They were intended to be used with a DEQX and don't have any built-in equalization. Looking at the nearfield measurement it seems they could easily be crossed over at 200hz or higher. But I have no idea how they would sound. I can setup an experiment with three different profiles on my DEQX and compare.

I hadn't considered a planar like the Neo10. Might be a good choice if I can raise the subwoofer crossover.

I've looked at AudioTechnology drivers. But I'm not able to find a US distributor of the 6" driver. PM me if you know of a source. I'd rather not go through the trouble of importing them myself.

falconsprint 1st March 2013 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScottG (Post 3390587)
Because it's active, efficiency isn't really an issue unless you are limiting yourself with respect to amplification.

Correct, I'll be using solid state 250 watts per driver. Nothing exotic. My current setup with the M80s requires 4 channels of amplification for left, center plus right for a total of 12 channels. So cost would get out of hand quickly if started using boutique amplifiers.

zmyrna 1st March 2013 12:00 PM

PHL
Mark Audio
Supravox
comes to my mind

studiotech 1st March 2013 02:08 PM

3 Attachment(s)
Since you can achieve those brick wall type slopes with the DEQX, you might be able to raise those subs up to near 200Hz. There were built with very good drivers, so there's a chance they'll sound OK that high. I agreed with Scotts theory, I just prefer to get those attributes of low mass and quick rise/settle time from the planar rather than a light, delicate cone.

I auditioned and measured about a dozen different cone drivers from arrays of 2-3" mini drivers to high sensitivity full-range units to things like the Scan Speak 15W and a Lambda TD6 before settling on the Neo10. There's something about a good push-pull planar used correctly that has an immediacy and snap to the sound that I've heard few cones get right. My implementation is an OB with the rear wave of the Neo10 semi absorbed. It is an attempt to blend the rear radiation pattern to more closely match the Raal above and OB loaded woofer below. I think in a closed box, you will have better luck running the Neo10 a little lower, but make sure to have a good amount of Bonded Logic or other quality absorption inside the box, but spaced behind the Neo10 surface by at least a few inches.

Oh and a word of caution, IF you do try the Neo10, use crimp terminals on the ends of the wire. Don't bother soldering directly to the tabs. The diaphragm is somewhat gentle and if you are not quick or remove the wires several times, you may damage the driver from transferred heat.

Greg

Jim Griffin 1st March 2013 02:57 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Great minds think alike. I have an open baffle midrange with PHL Audio 1240s in an MTM and Aurum Cantus G2 tweeters. Eminence 3015LF Neo Kappitalite woofers in H-frame mounts handle the lows. The 3-way crossovers are via a DEQX PDC2.6 HD at 175 Hz and 2500Hz. I'm using 96 dB/octave slopes.

My MTM baffle came from a P-E Dayton Audio 1 cubic ft box.

With these higher sensitivity drivers you have extra dynamic range which provides sound with body. I like it!

ScottG 1st March 2013 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Griffin (Post 3391087)
Great minds think alike. I have an open baffle midrange with PHL Audio 1240s in an MTM and Aurum Cantus G2 tweeters. Eminence 3015LF Neo Kappitalite woofers in H-frame mounts handle the lows. The 3-way crossovers are via a DEQX PDC2.6 HD at 175 Hz and 2500Hz. I'm using 96 dB/octave slopes.

My MTM baffle came from a P-E Dayton Audio 1 cubic ft box.

With these higher sensitivity drivers you have extra dynamic range which provides sound with body. I like it!



Ok, that's pretty "scary".

This is extremely close to what I asked SL to alter his Phoenix design for late in '99. :eek:

falconsprint 1st March 2013 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by studiotech (Post 3391024)
Oh and a word of caution, IF you do try the Neo10, use crimp terminals on the ends of the wire. Don't bother soldering directly to the tabs. The diaphragm is somewhat gentle and if you are not quick or remove the wires several times, you may damage the driver from transferred heat.

Greg

I like the look of the two Neo10s alongside the RAAL. Any concerns with them interfering with each other in the crossover band? One of the reasons I've chosen the RAAL is to get larger soundstage. My room has an abundance of absorption material (for bass) and the NHT M80s I'm using are very directional. The combination of the two has created a very tight soundstage.

I was thinking the center would be a horizontal MTM. Would I still want the Neo10s that close to the RAAL? Perhaps I could do a WMTMW for the center if I build the right enclosure.

Do the Neo10s need a capacitor for protection with the DEQX? My understanding is that the RAAL is very fragile to clicks and pops and must have a protection cap. The DEQX HDP-4 has an annoying pop when the digital input sampling rate changes (from 44.1 to 96khz for example).


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