Here's my current setup. Originally active DSP with GroundSound, recently upgraded to DEQX HDP-4. You can see the three 3-way NHT M80 monitors and two S80 subwoofers. There are two other S80s for LFE in the room. There's another bass trap to the right out of the picture. All of other panels also have OC 703 in them. Currently I'm sitting 10ft from the left/right speakers. So closer than average. In 2014 I'll be switching to a projection screen and will then move the chairs back about 2ft.
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you can work around the three way limitation of a single deqx unit. You can use a suitable behringer gear for the subs (have found the QC variable with them) or a mini dsp for the subs (not ever used one, assume they would have the capacity)
I personally think asking for recommendations is fraught with danger. Easy, I'll tell you what I like. Is that going to translate to you?
But, what else you gonna do. I see the dilemna.
Just to further skew the field (and as an example) I did not like the raal when I auditioned them in my system. Forget which one it was, any way the rest of the system is all PHL. (with two deqx units, it is four way plus subs)
So there ya go, somehow I think you simply HAVE to audition whatever is recommended.
Why not get in touch with deqx, find out if they know who might be in close enough prox to you that owns a deqx, and that might be happy for you to pop around. That may or may not help (ie, to you it does not matter if someone has converted a commercial speaker to active, you are diying) but you MAY just hit the jackpot with ideas for you and to be able to audition.
Or not, now I think about it it is a stupid idea.
I personally think asking for recommendations is fraught with danger. Easy, I'll tell you what I like. Is that going to translate to you?
But, what else you gonna do. I see the dilemna.
Just to further skew the field (and as an example) I did not like the raal when I auditioned them in my system. Forget which one it was, any way the rest of the system is all PHL. (with two deqx units, it is four way plus subs)
So there ya go, somehow I think you simply HAVE to audition whatever is recommended.
Why not get in touch with deqx, find out if they know who might be in close enough prox to you that owns a deqx, and that might be happy for you to pop around. That may or may not help (ie, to you it does not matter if someone has converted a commercial speaker to active, you are diying) but you MAY just hit the jackpot with ideas for you and to be able to audition.
Or not, now I think about it it is a stupid idea.
ah, just posted and saw you post above, must have missed it somehow.
well there ya go, (unless you got rid of it) you already have the groundsound, that can handle all the sub duties. I mean the nuts and bolts would have to be worked out, but off the top of me 'ead we can do a workaround and get more than a three way.
well there ya go, (unless you got rid of it) you already have the groundsound, that can handle all the sub duties. I mean the nuts and bolts would have to be worked out, but off the top of me 'ead we can do a workaround and get more than a three way.
I've done a 4-way with a NHT X2 cross-over. Worked ok. But its a 6db/octave crossover which is too much overlap in my opinion. It also doesn't allow me to equalize the drivers individually. I suppose I could make my own 24 db/octive line level crossover at a fixed point. If 4-way is the only option that's probably a reasonable choice.
Even better you can do it with two deqx hdp-4's with the digitial pass-thru and master/slave control cable. I'm doing that now and it also works great. Takes a lot of fidling to get it all setup. But my second deqx is targeted for the center channel.
Using other DSP solutions like the GroundSound, Behringer or miniDSP for creating a 4-way are problematic. Mostly due to the problem of a unified volume control. Controling the volume prior to the deqx would limit me to using the analog inputs and loss of resolution at low volumes. Controlling the volume after the deqx requires a multi-channel analog volume control like the MSB MVC.
The GroundSound DCN24 I have was configured as 4-way. It can also be done with miniDSP and Behringer. But a month ago I got the deqx on loan from a dealer. It made a significant improvement. (don't want to say much more since I'll be putting the DCN24s for sale soon
).The HDP-4 is now my preamp, dac and crossover. It also has a Windows application that allows me to swtich inputs, control the volume, change profiles to A/B compare different crossover and equalizatoin parameters, mute drivers, tweak levels and delay between the drivers. Pretty much everything you want to do to a multi-way speaker. All from the comfort of my listening chair.
just thinking out loud, not challenging you in any way.
Firstly, I could give a damn about home theater, so I am not on the same page as those who love it.
anyway, you have a second deqx? as mentioned, I know sweet F all about HT, but really, HOW important is the centre channel? I mean I get it, has to be clear, able to be understood, get all that stuff. But does it need dedicated deqx?? That will only be half used?
Why not throw the groundsound on that centre channel (and tbh, even tho I know nothing about HT I'd almost be willing to wager you could not tell them apart in a movie , whereas for the music times you COULD tell them apart, deqx superior (?) )
Maximise the quality for music, and I'd bet for movies (when the attention is hopefully on the story, good sound a nice bonus) you would not need the quality of the deqx for 'just' a centre channel.
But, I could be completely wrong too.
Why not a y splitter from the output of the deqx? That way the deqx vol control is in operation.
cool stuff. good luck!
Firstly, I could give a damn about home theater, so I am not on the same page as those who love it.
anyway, you have a second deqx? as mentioned, I know sweet F all about HT, but really, HOW important is the centre channel? I mean I get it, has to be clear, able to be understood, get all that stuff. But does it need dedicated deqx?? That will only be half used?
Why not throw the groundsound on that centre channel (and tbh, even tho I know nothing about HT I'd almost be willing to wager you could not tell them apart in a movie , whereas for the music times you COULD tell them apart, deqx superior (?) )
Maximise the quality for music, and I'd bet for movies (when the attention is hopefully on the story, good sound a nice bonus) you would not need the quality of the deqx for 'just' a centre channel.
But, I could be completely wrong too.
Why not a y splitter from the output of the deqx? That way the deqx vol control is in operation.
cool stuff. good luck!
hmm, when your 3 way speakers go down to 20hz or maybe 16hz, why do want a separate sub???? makes no sense.
what would be nice is something like this:
from top to bottom
two of these --http://www.visaton.de/en/chassis_zubehoer/tiefton/tiw200xs_8.html
closed box (around 25 liters each for o.707 or 11-12 liters for qtc 1 if you go linkwitz)
Raal 140
one accuton c220-222, closed box
two
TIW 200 XS - 8 Ohm
closed box
the visaton s are some of best bass driver you can get for money. i guess e-speakers sells them.
a W-W-T-M-W-W setting. usually you wouldn`t need 4 8" woofers for your room, but better safe then sorry with the cone excursion. because you EQ your woofers.
what would be nice is something like this:
from top to bottom
two of these --http://www.visaton.de/en/chassis_zubehoer/tiefton/tiw200xs_8.html
closed box (around 25 liters each for o.707 or 11-12 liters for qtc 1 if you go linkwitz)
Raal 140
one accuton c220-222, closed box
two
TIW 200 XS - 8 Ohm
closed box
the visaton s are some of best bass driver you can get for money. i guess e-speakers sells them.
a W-W-T-M-W-W setting.
usually you wouldn`t need 4 8" woofers for your room, but better safe then sorry with the cone excursion. because you EQ your woofers.Nice setup. I immediately had 4 responses to your room:
1. You need a projector - which I was glad to read is next on your agenda.
2. Darken the walls (ceiling too if you can) around the projection screen to minimize reflected light. So many people neglect this step but it's effective. Dark drapes and/or cloth might be your best bet for that.
3. For HT, get yourself the full 7 channel surround setup if you don't already have it. Maybe even the 9 channel setup tho I haven't heard how well those extra front channels work personally. But with such a well treated room, full encirclement with surround is wonderful. If you can stomach the actual movies, Star Wars 1, 2 and 3 are amazing.
4. I can't see your whole room, but I think there's a chance you have used a little too much absorption or not enough diffusion. I'm thinking that your room could really benefit from 4 to 6 diffusion panels (see different eg's below), maybe 24"x24" or a little bigger, set up on the side and back walls at about ear height. They keep the room a little bit more 'lively' but keep the HF reflections randomly diffuse. Lots of room for creativity in their implementation. Just a thought.
As for driver recommendations, I figured that my dream system would always be anchored at the top and bottom by a Raal tweeter and a Rythmik sub (or 2). You've got the Raal already, so here's some info on the Rythmik if you've never heard of it, Servo subwoofers •Rythmik Audio Direct Servo subwoofers.
I also ran across these reviews recently which I thought also might prove useful to you in terms of your driver selection:
Estelon X Diamond Loudspeaker | The Absolute Sound
Talon Phoenix Loudspeaker | The Absolute Sound
The Technology Behind the Q7 | The Absolute Sound
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agree, A projector allows the center to be vertically oriented instead of horizontal
I can see myself doing 7 channel when I get a projector and screen.
A dealer has suggested I put diffusion panels on top of the absorption panels. Diffusion panels that are transparent for LF and reflective for HF. What you don't see in the picture is a 12ft long x 7ft high glass patio door on the back wall. There's also a window to the left and glass mirror to the right. But yes, I certainly have too much absorption in the front. I will be adding diffusion later this spring.
I agree that I'll get a taller soundstage by putting midrange and woofers above as well as below the tweeter. Something like the Q7 maybe.
Yep, I'm somewhat familiar with Rythmik. If I remember correctly they have accelerometers on the drivers to control distortion, correct?
Overnight I've reconsidered my requirement that I will only consider a 3-way solution. My current setup is a 4-way with two deqx hdp-4s. Its working very well (besides the soundstage issue). I could add a hdp express-II for a lot less money than the hdp-4 to control the subwoofers.
I agree with this
I agree with this also
Forget the 9.1 setup for now, we are not mixing anything for that channel format. If used to expand 5.1 or 7.1, it can sound pretty artificial at times, and it can move stuff to positions that were never intended by the sound designer.
It is perfectly okay for a dedicated HT to be a little dead because let's face it - where we mix soundtracks is a little dead as well. It helps us hear everything in the mix without all of the reflections.
I agree with this. I probably prefer a room a little more dead than the average person, especially for HT but I have found it also very insightful for music too.
For the OP, I thought his room looked perhaps just a little excessively on the dead side. I didn't know about the glass tho. I'm thinking now that there might be something of a strange imbalance of direct HF reflections in the room. Perhaps some heavy drapes across the glass and a scattering of HF diffusion panels will help. But I'd certainly wait 'till after I got the new speakers built and set up in the room before starting to tweek it.
I'll chime back in here an add an additional thumbs up for the Rythmik Servos. I run a pair of 15" at home and we use a quad of them at the studio. They are very well reviewed and any of the few dissenting opinions are just plan wrong. Properly integrated with the mains and well placed in the room, they are exceptional for music. For HT, people generally seem to like a little more "boom" with their explosions, but they are accurate and very well pitch defined, especially at the highest damping setting.
I also think that some good diffusion is in order. Well placed diffusion can actually add to the sense of soundstage width for most recordings, however the more anechoic thing you've got going on is great for delicate acoustic recordings like those from Chesky Records back when Bob Katz was their recording engineer. When the recording itself has all of the spatial cues you need for immersion, sometimes more absorptive of good too. In either case, I think you are heading in the right direction.
The Raal is tops of anything I've ever heard for HF with possibly the exception of plasma, but the one I heard ran out of headroom quickly, whereas the 140-15 gets pretty loud and is very dynamic sounding, but always smooth. What about the 12M Scan Speak mid, and a nice 8-10" in the top box to be followed up with a pair of Rythmik? This gets you into the ballgame for a lot less than the Accutons and arguably, the Scan mid relieve of anything under say 300Hz is world class. Plus it is not fragile like the Accuton which scare me if you are gonna be throwing some ref level HT stuff at them too. Or in that case, use the BG Neo8-S version with a 8-10" woofer. Basically what I just made as a prototype studio monitor, but with the larger Raal in place of the OEM.
Greg
I also think that some good diffusion is in order. Well placed diffusion can actually add to the sense of soundstage width for most recordings, however the more anechoic thing you've got going on is great for delicate acoustic recordings like those from Chesky Records back when Bob Katz was their recording engineer. When the recording itself has all of the spatial cues you need for immersion, sometimes more absorptive of good too. In either case, I think you are heading in the right direction.
The Raal is tops of anything I've ever heard for HF with possibly the exception of plasma, but the one I heard ran out of headroom quickly, whereas the 140-15 gets pretty loud and is very dynamic sounding, but always smooth. What about the 12M Scan Speak mid, and a nice 8-10" in the top box to be followed up with a pair of Rythmik? This gets you into the ballgame for a lot less than the Accutons and arguably, the Scan mid relieve of anything under say 300Hz is world class. Plus it is not fragile like the Accuton which scare me if you are gonna be throwing some ref level HT stuff at them too. Or in that case, use the BG Neo8-S version with a 8-10" woofer. Basically what I just made as a prototype studio monitor, but with the larger Raal in place of the OEM.
Greg
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Greg, the OP is strictly talking about HT here, where all of the spatial cues are in the soundtrack itself.
While diffusion is helpful on the back wall, any frontal soundstage stretching(or expansion if you will) can change the delicate balance between the picture width, and the image width of the audio. If the sound it much larger than the picture, the brain will never "believe" what it is seeing and hearing is real. Most folks into HT do not understand the idea of scaling their audio and picture together so that one is not larger than the other.
Music on the other hand is quite a different beast.
No need to be careful with words. The room is more than just a 'little' excessively on the dead side. And because of that I'm getting fantastic bass. But what makes the dead room even worse is that I'm using very directional speakers meant for a professional mixing room. But there is a benefit. The soundstage is very accurate. Instruments and vocals don't wander around as they change frequency. The phantom center is dead straight ahead.
For two years I enjoyed the monitors and was always impressed with the accurate soundstage. When the dealer I purchased the deqx from came to my house he listened to them. He thought they sounded great, but the soundstage was 'between the speakers' and 'not enveloping enough'. I listened to his setup. He uses speakers with waveguide tweeters. Completely different soundstage. But too big for my taste. For orchestral music perfect, but for a jazz vocal it sounded like the singer had a five foot head! So I'm looking for a solution between those two extremes. We discussed other options such as AMT and ribbon. We also talked about not extending cone drivers too high where they will beam. I'd like to try the RAAL ribbon based on its reputation for good horizontal dispersion at a relatively low crossover point for a tweeter. Then match it with a midrange that is not beaming at the crossover.
What I'm learning in this thread is that is tough to build full range 3-way to those specifications because either the woofer or midrange will be stretched too far. So I'll think about which is more important. Having a 3-way to simplify setup with the deqx, or 4-way to allow me to use a smaller midrange driver.
Of course the RAAL has a reputation for having a narrow vertical dispersion. If that turns out to be not to my liking then someone is going to get a great deal on a pair of used 140-15D tweeters!
I was under the impression that he was looking for a dual purpose system, hence the reason I mentioned BOTH choices, dead AND diffuse.
Falcon, you can achieve the 4way and still use the DEQX as a three way processor. Just use the built-in filtering and EQ functions of the Rythmik plate amp as the 4th way of the system.
Greg
I want a dual purpose system. Agree, the room was originally setup for HT. I used to have the left/right closer to the screen. But lately I've been using it more for music. Seperating the left/righ has helped with the soundstage for music.
I understand that its not possible to be optimised for both. But I think I can do better than what I have.
You can only do this if you send everything down to 20hz out the woofer output of the deqx for the subwoofer. But then you risk overdriving the woofer. I've thought this through a lot. I could introduce another line-level crossover. But then I have to equalize the two together and phase match them some other way then using delay in the deqx.
The solution that works: buy a hdp express-II instead of buying expensive woofers that would be necessary to make a 3-way full range. Use my existing subwoofer for 60 or 80Hz and below.
Yea, perhaps parsing a few too many words there. But I really only meant a 'little' excessive because I like it also an the excessive side.
I lived in a small apartment a number of years ago and set my system up in my 12' x 11' bedroom. I set my doublebed, 6" of foam topped off with 2" of memory foam, up into a Murphy bed on the back wall, put bass traps in each corner, had 4 acoustic panels on the side walls and covered the front and side walls in heavy, dark drapery. My projector was on a shelf above the bed and I attached my smaller rear surround speakers to the underside of the bed so they'd be right behind me when I sat right in front of them. I didn't have a single complaint for music or movies - on the contrary, I thought it was my best setup to date, except I couldn't play it loud enough. (my mains are a Magico Mini style copy using the Scan 15W and a Vifa XT25) So in my mind, you've only gone a 'little' further than I did.
Forgive me for being dense - I don't know much of anything about an active setup - but can't you just design an active 3-way speaker that will roll off naturally 2nd order at about 60-80Hz and then simply add the powered subs to cover the final 2 octaves independently of the active system, using the sub xo to blend with the mains?
Might be kind of fun to see the Accutons shatter into dust during an explosion in a movie soundtrack. A trick you can only do once though, so it would have to be at the end of the movie.
Perhaps, as long as the 20-40Hz content didn't harm the driver. But let's not explore this anymore. If I go 4-way, I'll get the express-II.
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