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Old 6th March 2013, 04:10 AM   #41
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Here's my current setup. Originally active DSP with GroundSound, recently upgraded to DEQX HDP-4. You can see the three 3-way NHT M80 monitors and two S80 subwoofers. There are two other S80s for LFE in the room. There's another bass trap to the right out of the picture. All of other panels also have OC 703 in them. Currently I'm sitting 10ft from the left/right speakers. So closer than average. In 2014 I'll be switching to a projection screen and will then move the chairs back about 2ft.
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Old 6th March 2013, 06:17 AM   #42
terry j is offline terry j  Australia
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you can work around the three way limitation of a single deqx unit. You can use a suitable behringer gear for the subs (have found the QC variable with them) or a mini dsp for the subs (not ever used one, assume they would have the capacity)

I personally think asking for recommendations is fraught with danger. Easy, I'll tell you what I like. Is that going to translate to you?

But, what else you gonna do. I see the dilemna.

Just to further skew the field (and as an example) I did not like the raal when I auditioned them in my system. Forget which one it was, any way the rest of the system is all PHL. (with two deqx units, it is four way plus subs)

So there ya go, somehow I think you simply HAVE to audition whatever is recommended.

Why not get in touch with deqx, find out if they know who might be in close enough prox to you that owns a deqx, and that might be happy for you to pop around. That may or may not help (ie, to you it does not matter if someone has converted a commercial speaker to active, you are diying) but you MAY just hit the jackpot with ideas for you and to be able to audition.

Or not, now I think about it it is a stupid idea.
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Old 6th March 2013, 06:19 AM   #43
terry j is offline terry j  Australia
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ah, just posted and saw you post above, must have missed it somehow.

well there ya go, (unless you got rid of it) you already have the groundsound, that can handle all the sub duties. I mean the nuts and bolts would have to be worked out, but off the top of me 'ead we can do a workaround and get more than a three way.
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Old 6th March 2013, 07:16 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terry j View Post
you can work around the three way limitation of a single deqx unit. You can use a suitable behringer gear for the subs (have found the QC variable with them) or a mini dsp for the subs (not ever used one, assume they would have the capacity)
I've done a 4-way with a NHT X2 cross-over. Worked ok. But its a 6db/octave crossover which is too much overlap in my opinion. It also doesn't allow me to equalize the drivers individually. I suppose I could make my own 24 db/octive line level crossover at a fixed point. If 4-way is the only option that's probably a reasonable choice.

Even better you can do it with two deqx hdp-4's with the digitial pass-thru and master/slave control cable. I'm doing that now and it also works great. Takes a lot of fidling to get it all setup. But my second deqx is targeted for the center channel.

Using other DSP solutions like the GroundSound, Behringer or miniDSP for creating a 4-way are problematic. Mostly due to the problem of a unified volume control. Controling the volume prior to the deqx would limit me to using the analog inputs and loss of resolution at low volumes. Controlling the volume after the deqx requires a multi-channel analog volume control like the MSB MVC.

The GroundSound DCN24 I have was configured as 4-way. It can also be done with miniDSP and Behringer. But a month ago I got the deqx on loan from a dealer. It made a significant improvement. (don't want to say much more since I'll be putting the DCN24s for sale soon ).

The HDP-4 is now my preamp, dac and crossover. It also has a Windows application that allows me to swtich inputs, control the volume, change profiles to A/B compare different crossover and equalizatoin parameters, mute drivers, tweak levels and delay between the drivers. Pretty much everything you want to do to a multi-way speaker. All from the comfort of my listening chair.
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Old 6th March 2013, 07:41 AM   #45
terry j is offline terry j  Australia
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just thinking out loud, not challenging you in any way.


Quote:
Originally Posted by falconsprint View Post

Even better you can do it with two deqx hdp-4's with the digitial pass-thru and master/slave control cable. I'm doing that now and it also works great. Takes a lot of fidling to get it all setup. But my second deqx is targeted for the center channel.
Firstly, I could give a damn about home theater, so I am not on the same page as those who love it.

anyway, you have a second deqx? as mentioned, I know sweet F all about HT, but really, HOW important is the centre channel? I mean I get it, has to be clear, able to be understood, get all that stuff. But does it need dedicated deqx?? That will only be half used?

Why not throw the groundsound on that centre channel (and tbh, even tho I know nothing about HT I'd almost be willing to wager you could not tell them apart in a movie , whereas for the music times you COULD tell them apart, deqx superior (?) )

Maximise the quality for music, and I'd bet for movies (when the attention is hopefully on the story, good sound a nice bonus) you would not need the quality of the deqx for 'just' a centre channel.

But, I could be completely wrong too.


Quote:
Using other DSP solutions like the GroundSound, Behringer or miniDSP for creating a 4-way are problematic. Mostly due to the problem of a unified volume control. Controling the volume prior to the deqx would limit me to using the analog inputs and loss of resolution at low volumes. Controlling the volume after the deqx requires a multi-channel analog volume control like the MSB MVC.
Why not a y splitter from the output of the deqx? That way the deqx vol control is in operation.

Quote:

The HDP-4 is now my preamp, dac and crossover. It also has a Windows application that allows me to swtich inputs, control the volume, change profiles to A/B compare different crossover and equalizatoin parameters, mute drivers, tweak levels and delay between the drivers. Pretty much everything you want to do to a multi-way speaker. All from the comfort of my listening chair.
cool stuff. good luck!
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Old 6th March 2013, 09:34 AM   #46
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hmm, when your 3 way speakers go down to 20hz or maybe 16hz, why do want a separate sub???? makes no sense.

what would be nice is something like this:

from top to bottom

two of these --http://www.visaton.de/en/chassis_zubehoer/tiefton/tiw200xs_8.html
closed box (around 25 liters each for o.707 or 11-12 liters for qtc 1 if you go linkwitz)

Raal 140

one accuton c220-222, closed box

two
TIW 200 XS - 8 Ohm
closed box

the visaton s are some of best bass driver you can get for money. i guess e-speakers sells them.

a W-W-T-M-W-W setting. :-) usually you wouldn`t need 4 8" woofers for your room, but better safe then sorry with the cone excursion. because you EQ your woofers.
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Old 6th March 2013, 07:57 PM   #47
jReave is offline jReave  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by falconsprint View Post
Here's my current setup. Originally active DSP with GroundSound, recently upgraded to DEQX HDP-4. You can see the three 3-way NHT M80 monitors and two S80 subwoofers. There are two other S80s for LFE in the room. There's another bass trap to the right out of the picture. All of other panels also have OC 703 in them. Currently I'm sitting 10ft from the left/right speakers. So closer than average. In 2014 I'll be switching to a projection screen and will then move the chairs back about 2ft.
Nice setup. I immediately had 4 responses to your room:

1. You need a projector - which I was glad to read is next on your agenda.
2. Darken the walls (ceiling too if you can) around the projection screen to minimize reflected light. So many people neglect this step but it's effective. Dark drapes and/or cloth might be your best bet for that.
3. For HT, get yourself the full 7 channel surround setup if you don't already have it. Maybe even the 9 channel setup tho I haven't heard how well those extra front channels work personally. But with such a well treated room, full encirclement with surround is wonderful. If you can stomach the actual movies, Star Wars 1, 2 and 3 are amazing.
4. I can't see your whole room, but I think there's a chance you have used a little too much absorption or not enough diffusion. I'm thinking that your room could really benefit from 4 to 6 diffusion panels (see different eg's below), maybe 24"x24" or a little bigger, set up on the side and back walls at about ear height. They keep the room a little bit more 'lively' but keep the HF reflections randomly diffuse. Lots of room for creativity in their implementation. Just a thought.

As for driver recommendations, I figured that my dream system would always be anchored at the top and bottom by a Raal tweeter and a Rythmik sub (or 2). You've got the Raal already, so here's some info on the Rythmik if you've never heard of it, Servo subwoofers •Rythmik Audio Direct Servo subwoofers.

I also ran across these reviews recently which I thought also might prove useful to you in terms of your driver selection:
Estelon X Diamond Loudspeaker | The Absolute Sound
Talon Phoenix Loudspeaker | The Absolute Sound
The Technology Behind the Q7 | The Absolute Sound
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Old 6th March 2013, 08:45 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jReave View Post
1. You need a projector - which I was glad to read is next on your agenda.
agree, A projector allows the center to be vertically oriented instead of horizontal
Quote:
Originally Posted by jReave View Post
2. Darken the walls (ceiling too if you can) around the projection screen to minimize reflected light. So many people neglect this step but it's effective. Dark drapes and/or cloth might be your best bet for that.
3. For HT, get yourself the full 7 channel surround setup if you don't already have it. Maybe even the 9 channel setup tho I haven't heard how well those extra front channels work personally. But with such a well treated room, full encirclement with surround is wonderful. If you can stomach the actual movies, Star Wars 1, 2 and 3 are amazing.
I can see myself doing 7 channel when I get a projector and screen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jReave View Post
4. I can't see your whole room, but I think there's a chance you have used a little too much absorption or not enough diffusion. I'm thinking that your room could really benefit from 4 to 6 diffusion panels (see different eg's below), maybe 24"x24" or a little bigger, set up on the side and back walls at about ear height. They keep the room a little bit more 'lively' but keep the HF reflections randomly diffuse. Lots of room for creativity in their implementation. Just a thought.
A dealer has suggested I put diffusion panels on top of the absorption panels. Diffusion panels that are transparent for LF and reflective for HF. What you don't see in the picture is a 12ft long x 7ft high glass patio door on the back wall. There's also a window to the left and glass mirror to the right. But yes, I certainly have too much absorption in the front. I will be adding diffusion later this spring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jReave View Post
As for driver recommendations, I figured that my dream system would always be anchored at the top and bottom by a Raal tweeter and a Rythmik sub (or 2). You've got the Raal already, so here's some info on the Rythmik if you've never heard of it, Servo subwoofers •Rythmik Audio Direct Servo subwoofers.

I also ran across these reviews recently which I thought also might prove useful to you in terms of your driver selection:
Estelon X Diamond Loudspeaker | The Absolute Sound
Talon Phoenix Loudspeaker | The Absolute Sound
The Technology Behind the Q7 | The Absolute Sound
I agree that I'll get a taller soundstage by putting midrange and woofers above as well as below the tweeter. Something like the Q7 maybe.

Yep, I'm somewhat familiar with Rythmik. If I remember correctly they have accelerometers on the drivers to control distortion, correct?

Overnight I've reconsidered my requirement that I will only consider a 3-way solution. My current setup is a 4-way with two deqx hdp-4s. Its working very well (besides the soundstage issue). I could add a hdp express-II for a lot less money than the hdp-4 to control the subwoofers.
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Old 6th March 2013, 09:45 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jReave View Post
Nice setup. I immediately had 4 responses to your room:

1. You need a projector - which I was glad to read is next on your agenda.
I agree with this
Quote:
2. Darken the walls (ceiling too if you can) around the projection screen to minimize reflected light. So many people neglect this step but it's effective. Dark drapes and/or cloth might be your best bet for that.
I agree with this also

Quote:
3. For HT, get yourself the full 7 channel surround setup if you don't already have it. Maybe even the 9 channel setup tho I haven't heard how well those extra front channels work personally. But with such a well treated room, full encirclement with surround is wonderful. If you can stomach the actual movies, Star Wars 1, 2 and 3 are amazing.
Forget the 9.1 setup for now, we are not mixing anything for that channel format. If used to expand 5.1 or 7.1, it can sound pretty artificial at times, and it can move stuff to positions that were never intended by the sound designer.

Quote:
4. I can't see your whole room, but I think there's a chance you have used a little too much absorption or not enough diffusion. I'm thinking that your room could really benefit from 4 to 6 diffusion panels (see different eg's below), maybe 24"x24" or a little bigger, set up on the side and back walls at about ear height. They keep the room a little bit more 'lively' but keep the HF reflections randomly diffuse. Lots of room for creativity in their implementation. Just a thought.
It is perfectly okay for a dedicated HT to be a little dead because let's face it - where we mix soundtracks is a little dead as well. It helps us hear everything in the mix without all of the reflections.
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Old 6th March 2013, 10:59 PM   #50
jReave is offline jReave  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundtrackmixer View Post
It is perfectly okay for a dedicated HT to be a little dead because let's face it - where we mix soundtracks is a little dead as well. It helps us hear everything in the mix without all of the reflections.
I agree with this. I probably prefer a room a little more dead than the average person, especially for HT but I have found it also very insightful for music too.

For the OP, I thought his room looked perhaps just a little excessively on the dead side. I didn't know about the glass tho. I'm thinking now that there might be something of a strange imbalance of direct HF reflections in the room. Perhaps some heavy drapes across the glass and a scattering of HF diffusion panels will help. But I'd certainly wait 'till after I got the new speakers built and set up in the room before starting to tweek it.
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