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Old 19th February 2013, 09:20 PM   #51
steve71 is offline steve71  Australia
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Originally Posted by Kindhornman View Post
Steve,
The real question is whether you really need to use horns on the bottom end. Yes they are punchy but unless they are really large you aren't going to get down into the lower octaves with them anyway. I have some double 18" bass horns that I sell to guys for PA use. They are rather large and to get down low it takes multiple units stacked. They will knock you on your behind but they are just too big for indoors if you are trying to get down to a fundamental of 20 to 30hz. Even a 75hz mouth cutoff size is rather large. I have smaller horns that I use for home use. I use a small horn with a 1" driver for the top end from about 1600 hz on up and a small horn with a 6 1/2" and a cutoff of about 600hz. Below that I use a direct radiator and that is real easy these days. Seven of those units in a room the size you are talking about would have an SPL level high enough to drive everyone screaming from the room. Look at my avatar and you will see those units with a third small horn that was used from 10Khz on up just cause I wanted better top end than I could get from even a 1" compression driver. I used TAD drivers and the sound was more than sweet. The bass was covered by a down firing 10" in those enclosures.

Steven
I have DIY 80hz bass horns now that have a 3,500cm^2 mouth and 90cm length that I am pretty happy with.

This time round I have a big 30x40 building. To get extension down to 60hz it will require a bigger mouth and a longer horn, but that's OK. Below 60hz I will be crossing to a few large tapped horns.

Quote:
Originally Posted by j.michael droke View Post
Hi there S: If the A7 dosen't grab you, how abou the pair of A4's for sale on the bay now (84-inches tall), and the price is right too. ....regards, Michael
Can't imagine they would be cheap to ship. Besides I need 6 bass horns. They do look cool though .
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Old 19th February 2013, 09:26 PM   #52
steve71 is offline steve71  Australia
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Originally Posted by weltersys View Post
William has good information on his Unity horns here:
William Cowan's Homepage

I would think copying what he did would be far easier than the trail you would blaze using the multicells etc.

At any rate, by far the most difficult part is getting the crossover right, with DSP and some measuring that becomes much easier than the passive approach which has buried most of the Unity/Synergy builds- seemingly small changes in drivers require completely different passive crossover components to sum properly.
IIRC isn't William's synergy horns made from the KIT Tom was selling way back.

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Originally Posted by Pano View Post
1003 is a legit 300Hz horn. I have the 803 and the 1005 and they are not cheating. But just because the will play low, doesn't mean you should play low. Certainly the 288 doesn't work well that low without a steep crossover. Let your ears be the judge, if you can keep the driver out of distortion with a steep digital crossover and you like the sound of it, go for it.
I should be more clear, I *believe* it's a 288. One of the 1940's original RWB 'Hollywood" drivers, so I don't know how much they differ. At any rate, they do sound good down to 300hz. I've tried lower and it sounds bad.

I was using an active crossover with 24db/oct LR slopes.
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Old 19th February 2013, 09:34 PM   #53
steve71 is offline steve71  Australia
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Originally Posted by bear View Post
I prefer to keep the maximum range possible in a *single* driver. Thus my use of 203s from <300Hz. to rolloff. I also like full range ESLs. Preserve the sonic character of the midrange and as wide as you can + & - seems to be the philosophy that works best for me.
Yes, that's what I've always found. For home use I could use those mantaray horns in the pic above (500hz horns) down to 400hz with a LR 24db/oct slope.

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Originally Posted by bear View Post
Now here's heresy. In the form of free advice.

Imo, these multicells don't image worth a darn in their usual horizontal configuration. They do give coverage, which is what they were designed to do. Perhaps in a very *large* room, like a barn sized LR, or in a room with extremely absorptive walls, that being equivalent to being outside, they would image ok set up horizontally.

Word to the wise, down in Oz, Steve71, seek yee Martin Seddon of Azura Horns! Wish I could go and say hello myself...
Yep these are going to go into a heavily treated large space (home theater). The building is 30x40 and has cathedral ceilings.

I had these 1003's set up in a 22x25 room and they imaged pretty well. Not as good as the MR-64 horns, but overall I prefer the 1003's.

BTW I'm an Aussie, but live in the USA.

Thanks for the in-depth response!
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Old 19th February 2013, 09:45 PM   #54
steve71 is offline steve71  Australia
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OK after a bit of thinking over the week-end, I want to push ahead with 60hz bass horn idea. I really like what my 80hz horns do and have already bought the crossovers and amps (crown d-45's). I've got 6 288 compression drivers, 4 gauss HF horns and 6 Altec mid horns (MR-64/94 & 1003's) already so not much more to buy. I've very interested in the Synergy horns, but that can be another project for another day.

I'm all geared up to do measurement this time round.

In the next week or two I will be posting up a thread asking for options & opinions on the 60hz Altec 515G bass horn.
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Old 19th February 2013, 09:47 PM   #55
steve71 is offline steve71  Australia
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Originally Posted by Pano View Post
I haven't seen polar plots, but Altec did publish directivity plots for all the multis. I swear I had a copy but can't find it now. Should be online somewhere.

I could do it, but it would be a week or two before I'd get a chance.
Sorry Pano, I forgot to THANK YOU for that very kind offer! Even if GM didn't have the answer, I could not let you do the work for me, but I really do appreciate the offer.
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Old 19th February 2013, 10:48 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by steve71 View Post
OK after a bit of thinking over the week-end, I want to push ahead with 60hz bass horn idea. I really like what my 80hz horns do and have already bought the crossovers and amps (crown d-45's). I've got 6 288 compression drivers, 4 gauss HF horns and 6 Altec mid horns (MR-64/94 & 1003's) already so not much more to buy. I've very interested in the Synergy horns, but that can be another project for another day.

I'm all geared up to do measurement this time round.
Not trying to push you, but you could use the 288s and a pair of 8" or 10" speakers on each Synergy, with an acoustical crossover around 600-1KHz.
I'm using a pair of Eminence Alpha 8" and an EVDH1AMT, very similar response to a 288, in my PA. The cabinet design is similar to a Synergy, but has the HF driver on a Paraline coupler to reduce vertical dispersion to make it work properly as a line array.
Just did sound for Bill Maher in an 1800 seat airplane hanger type room, using 10 top cabinets covering back about 100 feet, and some delay speakers for the last 50 feet to reduce the slapback echo from the back wall.
Six in a room your size would be ________ (fill in the blank).
The HF needs to be boosted as in any constant directivity horn, but I don't feel the need for any tweeters, and cross into the Keystone TH at 100 Hz.

You also could probably pay for all the mid drivers with the sale of the Gauss tweets and the 1003 horns.

Art
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Old 19th February 2013, 11:15 PM   #57
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Steve71,
What state are you in? I just assumed that by the flag you were not in the states. My bass horns have a mouth not much lager than your bass horns but use two 18" drivers on a fiberglass molded throat section. To get down into the real low bass frequencies it takes plenty of eq or multiple units. I prefer the multi-unit approach myself as the excursion doesn't get out of hand on the bottom end. I'm no fan of constant directivity horns myself, without eq they are terrible by themselves at anywhere near a flat response. I use the molded horn throat section that then transitions to a wooden horn section. The entire waveguide is a hyperbolic expansion rate and the throat section does reduce the cross section of the effective cone area by 25% at the smallest section. This uses a patented design. that is now in the public domain, I let it lapse a long time ago but the design does work. I could live without the extreme low frequency response in an application such as yours.
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Old 20th February 2013, 01:08 AM   #58
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If you have a room that large, why go for 60Hz horns?? Too high.
Plenty of room for a big mouth.

I'd stay away from the mantaray type horn myself.

In the room size you cite and far enough back from the speakers, the horizontal altec multicells ought to be pretty good. I'd probably set them wide and toe them in, not leave them in the normal straight ahead set up.

Lots of options for bass horns and IB type set ups in a big room.

_-_-bear
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Old 20th February 2013, 02:58 AM   #59
steve71 is offline steve71  Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weltersys View Post
Not trying to push you, but you could use the 288s and a pair of 8" or 10" speakers on each Synergy, with an acoustical crossover around 600-1KHz.
I'm using a pair of Eminence Alpha 8" and an EVDH1AMT, very similar response to a 288, in my PA. The cabinet design is similar to a Synergy, but has the HF driver on a Paraline coupler to reduce vertical dispersion to make it work properly as a line array.
Just did sound for Bill Maher in an 1800 seat airplane hanger type room, using 10 top cabinets covering back about 100 feet, and some delay speakers for the last 50 feet to reduce the slapback echo from the back wall.
Six in a room your size would be ________ (fill in the blank).
The HF needs to be boosted as in any constant directivity horn, but I don't feel the need for any tweeters, and cross into the Keystone TH at 100 Hz.

You also could probably pay for all the mid drivers with the sale of the Gauss tweets and the 1003 horns.

Art
I'm not real fond of EQing the 288 flat in the manta-ray horns. I think if I were to go that route, I use that BMS? concentric HF driver.

The reason I want six of these speakers is for surround sound, so it's not like they will all be playing at once.

Sounds like you have a fun job!!
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Old 20th February 2013, 03:11 AM   #60
steve71 is offline steve71  Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kindhornman View Post
Steve71,
What state are you in? I just assumed that by the flag you were not in the states. My bass horns have a mouth not much lager than your bass horns but use two 18" drivers on a fiberglass molded throat section. To get down into the real low bass frequencies it takes plenty of eq or multiple units. I prefer the multi-unit approach myself as the excursion doesn't get out of hand on the bottom end. I'm no fan of constant directivity horns myself, without eq they are terrible by themselves at anywhere near a flat response. I use the molded horn throat section that then transitions to a wooden horn section. The entire waveguide is a hyperbolic expansion rate and the throat section does reduce the cross section of the effective cone area by 25% at the smallest section. This uses a patented design. that is now in the public domain, I let it lapse a long time ago but the design does work. I could live without the extreme low frequency response in an application such as yours.
I live high up in the mountains of Colorado. But I like to fly my Aussie flag .

The frequency that I need to cover is ~300/500 to 60hz. So a folded horn wouldn't work. I should have more bass than I need with the tapped horns below 60hz down to 15hz.

Your molded horns sounds interesting - got any links?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bear View Post
If you have a room that large, why go for 60Hz horns?? Too high.
Plenty of room for a big mouth.

I'd stay away from the mantaray type horn myself.

In the room size you cite and far enough back from the speakers, the horizontal altec multicells ought to be pretty good. I'd probably set them wide and toe them in, not leave them in the normal straight ahead set up.

Lots of options for bass horns and IB type set ups in a big room.

_-_-bear
I have a lot of space, but I also want to fit in a 22ft wide screen + space for LR speakers either side of the screen.

I can't put the speakers behind the screen because acoustically transparent screen material has very low gain. It's going to be hard enough as it is to light up a huge screen. I'll need all the screen gain I can get!

Bass will be crossed at 60hz to 4 of Ricci's GJALLARHORNs subs so no real need to go too huge on the bass horns.

I've seen that pic a bunch - comes up every time I search for horn pics. Interesting idea to raise the floor and put in bass horns. That is dedication! Is it your room?
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