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Old 8th February 2013, 03:41 PM   #41
DrDyna is online now DrDyna  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tinitus View Post
maybe note this is especially aimed at surround setup for sound effects
not saying it doesn't work for music, but...
They've been adding sound effects to music since the '60's...and some of it is pretty fantastic.

I've got some Pink Floyd tracks that'll knock bottles off my bar in the other room if I try to play it back at realistic levels.

I'd imagine it's still not as impressive as it is when they do it live, either.
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Old 8th February 2013, 03:42 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by tinitus View Post
well, yeah, I guess a sub is often on the want list because many common speakers lack the ordinary bass they actually should have, but for many good reasons haven't

but a substitute may not be the cure
meaning, lack of 'ordinary bass' and what a subwoofer does is not the same thing
Not sure I do understand your comment right but we're talking about sound reproduction not production.
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Old 8th February 2013, 04:07 PM   #43
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This was a mental block for me too at some point. Having a well integrated main with drivers capable of full range begs the question ... until you realize that LF production at these two points leaves other areas of the room, not the listening position, out of the "sweet spot".

Imagine dropping two pebbles into a pan of water. The peaks and dips of the small waves produced become mitigated to a degree when they converge. The convergence is limited to one prime area when excluding reflections.

Now imagine dropping in another and another (at random points) in addition to the two "fixed" (mains) drop points and the waves will be even further mitigated as they converge but the convergence is more wide spread within the pan .... a more even wave response with far less magnitude between the peaks and dips.

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Old 8th February 2013, 04:22 PM   #44
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you may not need subs if you have 15" or bigger woofers , smaller woofers decrease response fast above 100hz and equalizing to lift bass will kill your woofers sooner

im using active xo and releasing the woofers of the low end improved my mid bass a lot
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Old 8th February 2013, 05:30 PM   #45
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In the system I slapped together I have 12" woofers (3way) with the option of including 15" woofer (4way) into the mains. Done it both ways. It's not about the ability of the mains reaching low enough ... it's about LF coverage. Earl Gedlee's approach simplifies this.
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Old 8th February 2013, 05:56 PM   #46
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Correct, mains going down in frequency is NOT the solution. The LF problem in a real room is fundamentally different than the HF one and has to be dealt with differently. After a long and extensive look at this subject I have conmcluded that the mains should not go low and that there has to be multiple subs. There are a lot of details to be considered, but the bottom line is that subs are required - full range mains cannot achieve the same results. see loudspeakers and find the powerpoint on multiple subs.
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Old 8th February 2013, 06:15 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by balerit View Post
I guess so. A properly designed system should excite the room to give an overall good clean sound. My TQWP do that and it really a pleasure listening to them but to have monstrosities rattling the window pains seems to be bit over the top. Or maybe it's just me as I don't listen to modern day 'music' I'm old school rock.
OK. I take the hint, my sig is misleading and has hereby been edited.

"I hear thunder but there's no rain, this kind of thunder break walls and window pane." The Prodigy - Thunder

From my side it was a reference to the feeling of a well recorded and reproduced thunder, there are no thunder sounds in that tune, but I liked the sentence and find it amusing, allthough the real reference from Prodigy is probably in terms of bombs and explosions.

I prefer to use other tunes for testing.
Like the recording from 2L: Ivar Kleive - Om nogen til ondt meg lokke vil
The title directly translates to "If anyone to evil me lure will" the translation is wrong ever which way I write it, it is a religious church hymn, recorded as instrumental on church organ, very well played and dynamic recording, far better suited for testing purposes. And it sounds fantastic.

Sorry about the OT.
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Old 8th February 2013, 06:54 PM   #48
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My two cents worth...

If your main speakers don't provide enough LF, then you either need better mains, or add a sub. In my case, my "mains" are quite flat, but only down to 100Hz. The roll off at around 12db/octave below that. (KEF R101). I built subs that go to 30, and am very happy with the results. What do I listen to? Classical. Jazz. New Age. Rock. Sometimes at realistic levels...

The decision for the mains was WAF-inspired. Refrigerator-sized mains were not an option...
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Old 8th February 2013, 07:07 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jplesset View Post
My two cents worth...

If your main speakers don't provide enough LF, then you either need better mains, or add a sub. In my case, my "mains" are quite flat, but only down to 100Hz. The roll off at around 12db/octave below that. (KEF R101). I built subs that go to 30, and am very happy with the results. What do I listen to? Classical. Jazz. New Age. Rock. Sometimes at realistic levels...

The decision for the mains was WAF-inspired. Refrigerator-sized mains were not an option...
I think part of the issue is that even with refrigerator sized mains (think Velodyne ULD-18's used as speaker stands) you'll never get proper bass in reasonably sized rooms based purely on positioning issues.
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Old 8th February 2013, 07:18 PM   #50
balerit is offline balerit  South Africa
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Originally Posted by DrDyna View Post
They've been adding sound effects to music since the '60's...and some of it is pretty fantastic.

I've got some Pink Floyd tracks that'll knock bottles off my bar in the other room if I try to play it back at realistic levels.
But that's the point, that is not hi-fi. Anyone can go and by a cheap pa system and do the same. Tonight I was listening to Enigma and my little 6.5 inch Voight speakers still pack enough punch at moderate volume for my neighbors to complain, so why would I want subs?
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