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Old 14th February 2013, 11:05 PM   #281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murillollirum View Post
Lets make it simple:
Okay: 1. Yes, for a truly reference level sound reproduction system (which is of course, "not really necessary" itself so... ). Also, unless perhaps the listening space has been specially-designed from start to the give ideal results with only two LF sources. I don't know to what degree that's possible, but I'm sure we could come up with some things if we really wanted.
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Old 14th February 2013, 11:17 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by CopperTop View Post
My (huge) sealed speakers are -3dB at 30Hz, and I could always EQ them flat down to 20Hz if I wanted to. But someone made a point earlier that music is recorded on the assumption that people will be listening on more 'domestically acceptable' boxes in the first place. This has to be true doesn't it? As a newcomer to the world of ultra-bass, my impression is that flat to 30Hz can be too much for some recordings.
I prefer both mixing and playing back on speakers with LF response flat to 20 Hz.

I try to mix so the music will still sound good on a limited frequency response box, frequently turning off the sub, and even using a pair of 4" speakers while mastering to insure that the mix comes through.
There are nearly as many mixing and mastering philosophies as there are engineers, so frequency content is all over the place in modern recordings.

If your speakers are flat to 20 Hz, good mixes will sound good, poor mixes will sound poor.
If you feel like cutting hyped bass, or boosting LF on recordings with anemic bass, go ahead, but flat in room response is a good place to start.

Last edited by weltersys; 14th February 2013 at 11:19 PM.
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Old 15th February 2013, 12:14 AM   #283
tvrgeek is offline tvrgeek  United States
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Juhazi
Trying to help you here, not hang you.
Most of the tools you have use the same basic mathematical algorithms. FFTs. You have to acquire the sound. Even my calibrated specialty measurement mic drops like a rock below 20. You have to sent it through a mic preamp. As my mic is a condenser type, I guarantee it is going through at least one cap to keep the bias out of the preamp. My preamp is DC servo, so no way will it pass 10 Hz. It will CANCLE it. You have to do a analog to digital conversion. That has some issues. I admit I can't remember back that far in the Tektronics lectures on digital acquisition I took some 30 years ago, but I do remember that was a topic along with discussions of window size, sample size and window shape.

I am still suggesting you be skeptical of sub 20 Hz measurements without many thousands of euros in laboratory grade equipment. My experience with all of my PC based tools does nothing to change that. I also suggest if your room was as noisy as the relationships from 4K to 10 Hz are in your plots, you would be running screaming from the room. You must learn your test equipment. Think about it before you trust it.
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Old 15th February 2013, 12:20 AM   #284
tvrgeek is offline tvrgeek  United States
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"There are nearly as many mixing and mastering philosophies as there are engineers, so frequency content is all over the place in modern recordings."

Yet it is ironic that "purist" audiophiles shun the lowly tone control! Fortunately my trusty old Nak CA-5 has them, and I use them. For some reason , a lot of recordings seem to be a bit boosted in the 4K region, at least to my ears. Reading Toole, is could be the quality of many of the common monitor speakers out there. He was not especially kind to many of the "standard" ones.
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Old 15th February 2013, 12:28 AM   #285
Jay is offline Jay  Indonesia
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Originally Posted by murphythecat8 View Post
I dont think I saw someone mention how better his system sound since he covered that last bit of information (25 to 35hz)...
Also don't forget the basic benefit of multi-driver loudspeakers. By using a sub, you remove the mid woofer from the burden of reproducing wide frequency range so the quality of the mid woofer reproduction is much better.

Many people cross their mid woofers around 300Hz (to the sub) even tho they are capable of 60-70Hz.

IMO, the question about sub (lets assume a 4-way) is not too different with the question whether 3 way is necessary or 2 way only will do. From this perspective we know the difficulty and price of integrating low frequency drivers. We also know that what is covered by the woofer in a 3-way is more critical than what is covered by the sub in a 4-way.

Of course, 3-way versus 2-way is probably more about limiting frequency range to be handled by each driver (to within their best ability), less about reaching the lowest notes. Subwoofer is usually the other way around.
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Old 15th February 2013, 12:29 AM   #286
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Just listening to some of these classical organ pieces:
Amazon.com: Complete Organ Works 1: Saint-Saens, Bleicher: Music

The lowest organ notes are truly 'visceral' and it's very impressive to hear and feel them with the big speakers. However, if I play the same tracks with 4" woofers only, I feel I can actually hear more detail in the music and, amazingly, the bass still sounds adequately strong while being a bit less demanding on the ears. As someone said earlier, if I'd never heard the deepest bass, I wouldn't know to miss it.

In this case, I could happily listen to both 'versions' and enjoy them, depending on my mood, I think.
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Old 15th February 2013, 12:40 AM   #287
Jay is offline Jay  Indonesia
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Originally Posted by tvrgeek View Post
Yet it is ironic that "purist" audiophiles shun the lowly tone control! Fortunately my trusty old Nak CA-5 has them, and I use them. For some reason , a lot of recordings seem to be a bit boosted in the 4K region, at least to my ears.
For me myself, a little boost or cut in a good system won't hurt, but MANUALLY equalizing based on music is really a headache. So it is not just an extra caps or carbon pot in the signal path.

About the 4K in a recording, its new for me. Quite strange as many speakers do the same thing.
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Old 15th February 2013, 01:59 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by weltersys View Post
I prefer both mixing and playing back on speakers with LF response flat to 20 Hz.

I try to mix so the music will still sound good on a limited frequency response box, frequently turning off the sub, and even using a pair of 4" speakers while mastering to insure that the mix comes through.
There are nearly as many mixing and mastering philosophies as there are engineers, so frequency content is all over the place in modern recordings.

If your speakers are flat to 20 Hz, good mixes will sound good, poor mixes will sound poor.
If you feel like cutting hyped bass, or boosting LF on recordings with anemic bass, go ahead, but flat in room response is a good place to start.
As a recording engineer(movies and music), I have to agree with this wholeheartedly.
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Old 15th February 2013, 07:46 AM   #289
gpapag is offline gpapag  Greece
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Originally Posted by dumptruck View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by tvrgeek View Post
In order to take the burden off the shoulders of Juhazi and for to concur with the cautious skepticism of tvgeek and dumptruck, I will try to clarify some topics ref LF acoustic measurements (OT).

Sub 20Hz area is a world of it’s own.
Nature phenomena (think of wind blow and long distance thunders) produce a lot of energy sound waves there.
Man made noise too (think of the single case of building self resonance at 10Hz +/- 3-4Hz).

What a mic-amp-sound card records, is usually an underestimation of the actual acoustic case.
We can adjust (“calibrate”) our cheap recording system for more precise readings in this range. It takes knowledge (reading), care to details and a lot of time.
It would pay, if one is to cater for acoustic surveys, for performing live recordings or for investigating vibration issues (e.g. turntable resonance).
But for the subject of reproduction of pre-recorded music at home, it is IMHO a waste of resources.

George

PS. In a past activity of mine (pressure calibrators used in industry), even using primary standard –non electronics- apparatus with long response times, the very low frequency pressure variations due to ambient “noise” had to be addressed.
This problem was far more serious with secondary pressure calibrators (electronic pressure sensor systems) with their short response times. It had to be accounted for in order to establish the uncertainty budget for their "best measurement" certification report on the low pressure ranges.
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Last edited by gpapag; 15th February 2013 at 07:51 AM.
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Old 15th February 2013, 08:38 AM   #290
Juhazi is offline Juhazi  Finland
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It is not fruitful to compare naural/live sound output/spectrum of an acoustic instrument here. All isntruments resonate and have harmonics much more than their fundamentals. You can feel and hear them at live presentarions, and always the room/space contributes a lot too.

When we are reproducing music, we meet new challenges. In the recording/mixing/pressing stages most of content <25hz (or something like that) is high-passed off. There is nothing engraved on vinyl <30Hz.

But when we playt that record, the audio system and the listening room again start to (is excited to) make low "noise"

The behaviour of sound and speaker is different at modal Fq area (<150Hz usually). This is why I think it should be handled differently, with different positioning of the speakers for the lowest bass. When listening to music I get the best "sound" if the source material is high-passed / doesn't contain <30Hz at all. I might be missing something but I also avoid a lot of problems!
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