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Old 14th February 2013, 09:20 PM   #271
Jay is offline Jay  Indonesia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDyna View Post
So, your reasons are pretty much "I don't want it" and "My windows rattle." and "I heard one once and I didn't think I could integrate it."

That's great
You have a strange style of making argument you know Normal style is to gather some accurate information then build a logical conclusion based on those.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDyna View Post
but if someone asks you "Do you think I should have one?" are you going to just say "No, because I don't like them." or will you actually attempt to qualify the question by asking necessary follow up questions, like, "What kind of music do you listen to?" and "How loud do you listen to it at?"
I'm going to say what I have said and wait for a response then do a follow up based on the response (that I may have anticipated).

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDyna View Post
WE get it, you use an SET amp with efficient speakers and you don't think good low bass performance is important because hardly any of the music you listened to has any low end, or you listen to it at such a feeble level that it doesn't matter anyway. That's an entirely personal thing.
Who is WE? No, I don't use SET. The SET thing relates to the quality of the sound reproduction that makes sub integration have too many "compromises". But you're right. Tubes are good with vocals so tube lovers prefer to listen to what is good in their system, which is mostly vocal (That's also what I did when I used tube amps).

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDyna View Post
I spent a couple of hours listening to music yesterday and at least half of it had content (very strong content) below 35 cycles. Would your advice to me be that I don't need subs?
I have mentioned that this is about taste (and hormone ). That this depends on the music we are listening. Because it is a taste, then sure I have one. And I have mentioned it, I don't like the kind of music with lower frequency content than piano or double bass.
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Old 14th February 2013, 09:33 PM   #272
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay View Post
I have mentioned that this is about taste (and hormone ). That this depends on the music we are listening. Because it is a taste, then sure I have one. And I have mentioned it, I don't like the kind of music with lower frequency content than piano or double bass.
Best avoid music containing frequencies below 16.35 Hz then .
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Old 14th February 2013, 09:40 PM   #273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay View Post
You have a strange style of making argument you know Normal style is to gather some accurate information then build a logical conclusion based on those.



I'm going to say what I have said and wait for a response then do a follow up based on the response (that I may have anticipated).



Who is WE? No, I don't use SET. The SET thing relates to the quality of the sound reproduction that makes sub integration have too many "compromises". But you're right. Tubes are good with vocals so tube lovers prefer to listen to what is good in their system, which is mostly vocal (That's also what I did when I used tube amps).



I have mentioned that this is about taste (and hormone ). That this depends on the music we are listening. Because it is a taste, then sure I have one. And I have mentioned it, I don't like the kind of music with lower frequency content than piano or double bass.
Everybody knows that if anyone only listen to bob dylan, well he will not need the sub 30 hz frequency.

What about those who do listen to music which has information under 30hz... Do you guys who do listen to music which contain information under 30hz think its primordial to hear/feel those freq, or your perfectly satisfied with a system that can do 35hz flat...
My mains go down to 30hz f3, am I really missing something that would be valuable, or is it barely anything and it doesn really matter...
I dont think I saw someone mention how better his system sound since he covered that last bit of information (25 to 35hz)...
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Old 14th February 2013, 10:00 PM   #274
tinitus is offline tinitus  Europe
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many musicians almost never plays the lowest tunes on their instrument
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Old 14th February 2013, 10:08 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by murphythecat8 View Post
Everybody knows that if anyone only listen to bob dylan, well he will not need the sub 30 hz frequency.

What about those who do listen to music which has information under 30hz... Do you guys who do listen to music which contain information under 30hz think its primordial to hear/feel those freq, or your perfectly satisfied with a system that can do 35hz flat...
My mains go down to 30hz f3, am I really missing something that would be valuable, or is it barely anything and it doesn really matter...
I dont think I saw someone mention how better his system sound since he covered that last bit of information (25 to 35hz)...

My main speakers stop (being ported, there's no chance of them going lower) at 40Hz.
90something% of the time, that's enough.
Its enough for 95% of music. Some stuff (like Enya, and quite a lot of dubstep) needs the sub but...

That 5% extra is the special effects in movies. I have a 12" sub in a smallish sealed box, crossed where the mains drop off. Given a movie where everything explodes, its worth having: I can boost its level and drop the XO, forming a crude Linkwitz Transform, which extends the response down low if I want it.
I probably over-do the boosting a bit, as music sounds, er, interesting with these settings (the crossover is via a Behringer CX2310, 4th order variable, so hardly ideal for LT). For films, it brings on the flight/fight response when called upon.
IMHO, that's enough.
Final system f3 probably works out circa 20Hz, but there'll be some peaking between there and 40Hz as the crossover slope doesn't match the rolloff.

To answer your question, a capable subwoofer makes a big positive difference in movies. Depending on your musical tastes, it may fill in what you're missing, or it may sit there, idle. The only way to find out is to try it.

See if anyone you know has a decent sub they'd be willing to lend you, and remember to set it up so that you don't notice it while listening, but if it gets switched off, you miss that last bit.

Chris
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Old 14th February 2013, 10:13 PM   #276
Jay is offline Jay  Indonesia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weltersys View Post
Best avoid music containing frequencies below 16.35 Hz then .
I'm not sure what you are up to

Your table lists the lowest available frequency from certain instruments. Not all piano for example will go as low as a grand piano.

And as we see, the pipe organ is the lowest on the list. But electronic music can go lower and deliberately so.

Many live performance of piano doesn't even go very low. But live double bass is very impressive, usually better than recorded sound from my systems.

Usually, type of music determines what instruments to be used, and then there is little inclination to choose what low frequency to reproduce. Piano, just doesn't sound at it's best without 40Hz. Double bass, rarely cover 30% of a jazz performance.
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Old 14th February 2013, 10:17 PM   #277
Jay is offline Jay  Indonesia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murphythecat8 View Post
I dont think I saw someone mention how better his system sound since he covered that last bit of information (25 to 35hz)...
I think there is something in my opinion that phase or frequency roll-off determines the beauty in bass reproduction. Such that even small woofers can display this beauty, not necessarily subwoofer that can reproduce flatly 35Hz.

Assuming that the sub integration is perfectly done, if the music lies around 25-30Hz then of course the music/system will sound better. Some orchestra will sound much better with 25-35Hz coverage. Piano is important because it usually covers more than 70% of the music. But remember again, it doesn't have to be flat (0dB from the "fundamental") to be heard.
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Old 14th February 2013, 10:32 PM   #278
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I think this post is going to a totally different direction, the question is not: what is the lowest frequency we need for playing music in general? the question is simple: SUBWOOFERS, ARE THEY REALLY NECESSARY FOR HOME AUDIO?
Lets make it simple:

1) Yes.
2) No. only for movies
3) it depends... of what music you like
4) No. If your main speakers go low as 20Hz
5) No. If your main speakers go low as 30Hz
6) No. Because I don;t like deep bass.
7) Prefer to not answer.
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Old 14th February 2013, 10:34 PM   #279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murphythecat8 View Post
What about those who do listen to music which has information under 30hz... Do you guys who do listen to music which contain information under 30hz think its primordial to hear/feel those freq, or your perfectly satisfied with a system that can do 35hz flat...
My mains go down to 30hz f3, am I really missing something that would be valuable, or is it barely anything and it doesn really matter...
I dont think I saw someone mention how better his system sound since he covered that last bit of information (25 to 35hz)...
As I mentioned in post #184 I do live sound and recording for a living and use PA cabinets that make it flat to around 35 Hz, the F3 is very close to 30 Hz, and I frequently hear much lower musical response with my home stereo and studio control room sub which make it to 20 Hz.

I seldom listen to music at levels where I "feel" the low frequencies, I hear them.

Before I got subs that went down to 20 Hz, I used headphones to listen for LF content. When I started hearing more and more music with content in the 20-30Hz region, I added the control room sub, and built a new sub for my stereo that could reproduce what was missing before.

You can't miss something you have not heard, but once you have heard it, you miss it when it's gone.
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Old 14th February 2013, 10:49 PM   #280
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My (huge) sealed speakers are -3dB at 30Hz, and I could always EQ them flat down to 20Hz if I wanted to. But someone made a point earlier that music is recorded on the assumption that people will be listening on more 'domestically acceptable' boxes in the first place. This has to be true doesn't it? As a newcomer to the world of ultra-bass, my impression is that flat to 30Hz can be too much for some recordings. Maybe by joining the brotherhood of deep bass I have now opened a can worms with regard to room treatments that I never really worried about before...
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