I have to believe that is distortion, special effects, or you are doing research on elephant language. ( they do communicate in subsonics) Below 20 Hz is called SUBSONIC for a reason.
For a full experience of pipe organ, then you do need to get to the lower 30's. For artificial music and special effects, maybe mid 20's. Below that is distortion, so I have to call you out on that 10 Hz for "classical" I would agree, if the mains could produce the lowest register, great. Few can. Besides, when I tweak an amp, I am setting the network in the feedback to NOT produce amplification at 10Hz. Way too close to the servo that may be running at 5 Hz. and it won't get bast my input DC blocking caps anyway.
Just my two cents, but I have come to the conclusion all this jabber about sub 30 Hz is about bragging rights, (at best) not people who actually listen. I believed the 20 to 20 when I was still 20. Now I FILTER at 25Hz. Makes for lower distortion and quicker pulse decay. That is also why I like sealed subs. I am also looking at filtering at 19 or 20K as I have a theory about harmonic distortion exciting tweeter breakup which in turn causes IM at audible frequencies.
Then your conslusion is certainly not based on facts. I do listen, a lot. That's why I know that there's a profound difference betwenn flat to 30Hz and flat to 20Hz.
Here's a thread for you
The New Master List of BASS in Movies with Frequency Charts
+1.Then your conslusion is certainly not based on facts. I do listen, a lot. That's why I know that there's a profound difference betwenn flat to 30Hz and flat to 20Hz.
Here's a thread for you
I do live sound and recording for a living (if you could call it that
) and use PA cabinets that make it flat to around 35 Hz (HP at 30 Hz), and I frequently hear much lower musical response with my home stereo and studio control room sub which make it to 20 Hz.At my stage in the age game, I can hear 15 Hz at a much, much lower SPL level than 15,000 Hz.
If anyone thinks that is bragging, believe me, I wish it were the other way around
.Art
I have a book of Mr. Floyd E. Toole called sound reproduction, and there is a chapter called (Delivering good bass in small rooms) wich I will resume for you in some declaration and observations.
1. The use of multiple subwoofers to manipulate sound fields, controlling the energy delivered to room modes is a recent develpment and the results of this approach are very good.
2. In stereo, it was common to think of a sweet spot, and make all arrangments to have this optimum single listener.
3. However, the existence of standing waves among the roo mensures that other seats experience difference bass.
4. To deliver a good bass to several listeners, the room resonances must be physically manipulated.
5. Acoustic: attacks the problem with absortion
6. Absortion is Always a good idea but it’s difficult.
7. The absortion material has to be placed away from the room boundaries ato ne-quarter the wavelenght (30Hz 2.9meters!)
8. at the corners “bass traps”do not work because there is located the max sound pressure, not particle velocity.
9. There are two ways to vary the amount of energy transfered from loudspeakers tom odes:
a. Locate the subwoofer near a pressure minimum in the offending standing wave
b. Use 2 or more subs to drive the standing waves constructively or destructively. 2 subwoofers connected in parallel, one in each side of a null will destructively drive the mode; positioned two nulls apart, the same subs will amplify the mode
10. The improvement of seat-to-seat bass variations of using multiple subwoofers is vey small when using more than 4.(this was tested buy a Harman guy, using from 1 to 5000 subs in a room)
11. The best subs position using two is one at the middle of the front wall and the other in the opposite back wall; using 4 is one at each corner, or one at the middle of each wall
12. Two midwall subs Works as well as four subs
That’s it.
Now let's hear the GURUS.
1. The use of multiple subwoofers to manipulate sound fields, controlling the energy delivered to room modes is a recent develpment and the results of this approach are very good.
2. In stereo, it was common to think of a sweet spot, and make all arrangments to have this optimum single listener.
3. However, the existence of standing waves among the roo mensures that other seats experience difference bass.
4. To deliver a good bass to several listeners, the room resonances must be physically manipulated.
5. Acoustic: attacks the problem with absortion
6. Absortion is Always a good idea but it’s difficult.
7. The absortion material has to be placed away from the room boundaries ato ne-quarter the wavelenght (30Hz 2.9meters!)
8. at the corners “bass traps”do not work because there is located the max sound pressure, not particle velocity.
9. There are two ways to vary the amount of energy transfered from loudspeakers tom odes:
a. Locate the subwoofer near a pressure minimum in the offending standing wave
b. Use 2 or more subs to drive the standing waves constructively or destructively. 2 subwoofers connected in parallel, one in each side of a null will destructively drive the mode; positioned two nulls apart, the same subs will amplify the mode
10. The improvement of seat-to-seat bass variations of using multiple subwoofers is vey small when using more than 4.(this was tested buy a Harman guy, using from 1 to 5000 subs in a room)
11. The best subs position using two is one at the middle of the front wall and the other in the opposite back wall; using 4 is one at each corner, or one at the middle of each wall
12. Two midwall subs Works as well as four subs
That’s it.
Now let's hear the GURUS.
Aphex Twin "Logan Rock Witch":
This is nothing when you compare it to a movie track like The Haunted(awful movie great soundtrack). It has deep intense bass down to 5hz.
I'm not sure the title of this thread is a good one. It seems to invoke a divide among those who otherwise might agree.
Is it necessary? - Of course not, I have been listening to 3-5" drivers on back loaded spiral horns and been having a really great time doing it. Many of you know me as a large speaker person so how is that possible?
Is it desirable? - In many situations, of course it is. You want to cover as much of the spectrum as possible don't you?
I can't see where this is going to be an educational thread and 188 posts into it bear out my thoughts.
In the meantime, enjoy yourselves.
Is it necessary? - Of course not, I have been listening to 3-5" drivers on back loaded spiral horns and been having a really great time doing it. Many of you know me as a large speaker person so how is that possible?
Is it desirable? - In many situations, of course it is. You want to cover as much of the spectrum as possible don't you?
I can't see where this is going to be an educational thread and 188 posts into it bear out my thoughts.
In the meantime, enjoy yourselves.
dear Cal, when I opened this thread it was not my intention to invoke disagreement between peopleI'm not sure the title of this thread is a good one. It seems to invoke a divide among those who otherwise might agree.
Is it necessary? - Of course not, I have been listening to 3-5" drivers on back loaded spiral horns and been having a really great time doing it. Many of you know me as a large speaker person so how is that possible?
Is it desirable? - In many situations, of course it is. You want to cover as much of the spectrum as possible don't you?
I can't see where this is going to be an educational thread and 188 posts into it bear out my thoughts.
In the meantime, enjoy yourselves.
. I think everyone has a different approach to the matter, but hey man, this is a democracy, everyone has the right to tell anything they want... I just agree with you that some guys are going too much 'sensitive' about their truths. I think we all are at the same search: for a always better sound reproduction. Let's just relax a little guys and respect each other opinions without satiric notes 
Science is not a democracy. It's laws are not subject to popular opinion.
I always think that, subwoofers will give you an instant access to "bass". Surprisingly, when designed appropriately, which is rare and difficult, a smaller speaker can produce the "bass" even better.
I always like the idea of building small speaker that sound like real. I have a 4" speaker driven by TDA2030A that sounds (in room) as big as 15" speakers.
No, I don't need subwoofers. Because it is difficult to implement them without affecting the quality of the main speakers. I just need good speakers. Bass notes (piano, double-bass) can sound so good with smaller speaker. Often better than what can be heard from bigger speakers.
My point is, people may find subwoofers too useful simply because they don't have the right speaker to begin with.
I always like the idea of building small speaker that sound like real. I have a 4" speaker driven by TDA2030A that sounds (in room) as big as 15" speakers.
No, I don't need subwoofers. Because it is difficult to implement them without affecting the quality of the main speakers. I just need good speakers. Bass notes (piano, double-bass) can sound so good with smaller speaker. Often better than what can be heard from bigger speakers.
My point is, people may find subwoofers too useful simply because they don't have the right speaker to begin with.
The answer is no. You can search for the working frequencies of various musical instruments. But of course, if you listened only for pipe organ musics, then may be you have different needs than those who listen only pop music.
I like piano, I like double bass. I don't like music with lower frequency contents than those.
But the key is that even if your speaker is small, you still can hear the lower frequency contents. It is just a few dB down, and acoustically with the help of room/box.
Cal simply suggests that the title put this on a less than helpful track. I think so too. It has caused much discussion on how low music will reach, and too little on why subwoofers would be necessary.
Now read the whole book. Read about SFM. Here's a paper by Welti: http://www.aes.org/e-lib/download.cfm?ID=13680&name=harman
Then read what others are doing: Fazenda et al, "Subjective Preference of Modal Control in Listening Rooms"
The problems in acoustically small rooms at low frequencies are large spatial variations and slow decay at modal frequencies. Passive or active absorption can solve those problems. For active solutions subwoofers are needed. You'll find that those subwoofers can't be located where the mains are.
I'd say no but music is also about sound and not just the notes otherwise humans wouldn't have invented all those different instruments. There wouldn't be concert halls which are part of the music. An orchestra playing in an anechoic chamber doesn't sound very pleasant (listen to "Denon Anechoic Orchestral Music Recording").
Sometimes I wonder if folks who continue to make the silly assertion that music doesn't contain anything below 30 cycles have just never heard speakers with a proper speaker response...or are just unable to implement such a thing and as a result argue against it to feel better about the system they do have.
At least we're getting to the point where these assertions are at least accompanied by the equally silly assertion "well that's not music anyway because I don't like that genre"
Insulting an entire range of music by attempting to remove its classification of being music at all isn't going to help make any meaningful point, its more like running out of bullets and then deciding to just throw the gun at someone.
At least we're getting to the point where these assertions are at least accompanied by the equally silly assertion "well that's not music anyway because I don't like that genre"
Insulting an entire range of music by attempting to remove its classification of being music at all isn't going to help make any meaningful point, its more like running out of bullets and then deciding to just throw the gun at someone.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.