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Old 9th February 2013, 07:27 AM   #31
yov is offline yov  France
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pascal GUERIN View Post

By the way the D300P04 is made in PRC ...


I was thinking to change for this one:
http://www.supravox.fr/haut_parleurs/400_GMF.htm
but too expensive... 600 euros !

What can you recommend ?
- rubber suspension
- not more than 300 euros
- cutoff below 500 Hz
- made in France
- 91db or above

Last edited by yov; 9th February 2013 at 07:34 AM.
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Old 9th February 2013, 10:21 AM   #32
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Location: Savoie - France
Davis 31TCA12

You haven't bought any drivers yet ?
If you're interrested in second hand Davis 16, PM me.
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Old 5th May 2013, 02:26 PM   #33
yov is offline yov  France
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Hi guys,


Some news of my project !

I'm almost done with the woodwork of the first speaker
I still need to cut out the holes: for the 3 drivers, for the binding posts and for the vent.
It took a while to apply wood paste to all the junctions between the different wood parts and to be as much air-proof as possible. I also bought some rubber joints to stick around the woofer and midrange volumes.

I've decided to make a few changes to the initial plan.
The 16GKLV6M mid-range will be working in a closed box. It will be cut-off at 300Hz so no need to have a bass reflex vent to enhance the low-frequency .
As for the woofer it will have only one vent in PVC : 9.4cm x 33cm.

The next step is to paint the white sublayer/undercoat in order to make the MDF less porous.
After that, I think that I will paint it all in glossy black. I would also like to have part of it painted in dark red but I don't know where...


Cheers
Attached Images
File Type: jpg DSC_0002_1.jpg (267.8 KB, 288 views)
File Type: jpg DSC_0003_1.jpg (250.9 KB, 269 views)
File Type: jpg DSC_0004_1.jpg (262.6 KB, 254 views)
File Type: jpg DSC_0006_1.jpg (255.6 KB, 240 views)
File Type: jpg DSC_0008_1.jpg (239.4 KB, 223 views)
File Type: jpg DSC_0013_1.jpg (268.9 KB, 38 views)
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Old 5th May 2013, 02:50 PM   #34
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Hi,

Nice job, have you chosen the bass speaker ?
What about the crossover design ?
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Old 5th May 2013, 06:16 PM   #35
yov is offline yov  France
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The bass speaker is the Atohm D300P04, I haven't changed my mind

As for the crossover I'm still aiming at a first order with cutoff frequencies at 250Hz and 4000Hz. I think that the tweeter can handle -15dB@1000Hz and that the midrange can handle -15dB at 60Hz.
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Old 5th May 2013, 07:04 PM   #36
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Bonjour,

Quote:
The bass speaker is the Atohm D300P04, I haven't changed my mind
250 Hz low pass is too high without EQ for this speaker IMHO (FIY I own it) T/S Le = 2.47 mH ... I'm going ton use 12BR70.

Quote:
or the crossover I'm still aiming at a first order with cutoff frequencies at 250Hz and 4000Hz. I think that the tweeter can handle -15dB@1000Hz and that the midrange can handle -15dB at 60Hz.
With a first order high pass at 4000 Hz, I think the cone breakup of the 16GKLV6M at 14 kHz will be not enough tamed.
Why not going second order , same question for the tweeter.

Yov, you should simulate your crossover with SW or PCD.

My design is going to be : 12BR70 + 16GKLV6M + TW034

- first order for the 12,
- second order low and high pass for the 16, third order for tweeter.

Point of crossover, 350 Hz and 2000 Hz.

Last edited by Pascal GUERIN; 5th May 2013 at 07:13 PM.
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Old 5th May 2013, 07:55 PM   #37
yov is offline yov  France
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pascal GUERIN View Post

Bonjour,

250 Hz low pass is too high without EQ for this speaker IMHO (FIY I own it) T/S Le = 2.47 mH ... I'm going ton use 12BR70.
Bonjour Pascal,

For the D300P04, Atohm recommends a cut-off frequency at 500Hz which I think is too high because at this frequency the impedance is already 12Ohms. At 250Hz the impedance is 7 Ohms. I think that starting at 250Hz the first order filter will slowly help the woofer to cut-off naturally as the frequencies increase.
Why do you say that 250 Hz is too high ? Please explain this T/S Le thing !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pascal GUERIN View Post

With a first order high pass at 4000 Hz, I think the cone breakup of the 16GKLV6M at 14 kHz will be not enough tamed.
Why not going second order , same question for the tweeter.
With a first order cutting-off at 4000Hz, the attenuation at 14kHz will be almost -15dB. Do you think it is enough to mask the cone breakup ?

To be honest, I'm still hesitating in switching to a second order for the high cut-off of the mid-range with the tweeter. But I don't like complex filters because I'm afraid of them ! Plus, they are more expensive and much more subject to errors!

Perhaps a second-order could be better, I'm still thinking as I assemble the wood.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pascal GUERIN View Post

My design is going to be : 12BR70 + 16GKLV6M + TW034

- first order for the 12,
- second order low and high pass for the 16, third order for tweeter.

Point of crossover, 350 Hz and 2000 Hz.
The 12BR70 is much cheaper than the Atohm D300P04 and looks similar in performance, but it doesn't go as down as the D300, I think.

Your crossover filter looks very complex, you will need at least 9 electrical components per speaker!
The second-order @ 2000 Hz for the Davis is a shame... The 16GKLV6M has a linear response up to at least 10KHz.

Are you using a closed box for the Davis ?
Do you intend to start this new project soon ?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg D_300_P04-4.jpg (547.3 KB, 53 views)
File Type: jpg 12BR70.jpg (551.7 KB, 43 views)
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Old 6th May 2013, 07:05 AM   #38
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Bonjour,

I've send my email in PM, maybe it would be easier to discuss in french

You will find in attachment the SPL and impedance files, see plot.

My advice ad a fisrts start:

- first follow the original filter designed by Mr Visan (see mv15.pdf in attachment) for the medium and add a LPAD to correct the level in order to match the woofer sensitivity (susbstract amount of BSC from the woofer sensitivity : 3/4 db)

- calculate a third order textbook high pass filter at 5000 Hz for the tweeter and a LPAD to match with the medium sensitivity with the filter

- As done in the original crossover, the BSC of the medium may be corrected by the woofer crossed at 350 Hz first order.
An optionnal RC circuit may be added to flatten the impedance of the woofer.

You should try to import .frd and .zma in Passive Crossover Designer (PCD)
and try to simulate your complete crossover. I think i can find my old measures of the D300P04


Concerning the simulations of the two speaker D300P04 and 12BR70, see WINISD simulations : 12 BR70 / 90l / 35 hz - D300P04 - 60 l - 30 hz both 350 Hz low pass first order.

Quote:
The second-order @ 2000 Hz for the Davis is a shame... The 16GKLV6M has a linear response up to at least 10KHz
See plot ... Very linear
Attached Images
File Type: png 16gklv6m-spl-imp.png (39.8 KB, 42 views)
File Type: png D300P04-12BR70.PNG (78.6 KB, 30 views)
Attached Files
File Type: txt 16gklv6MPart-Expressfrd.txt (9.9 KB, 6 views)
File Type: txt 16gklv6MPart-Expresszma.txt (7.8 KB, 3 views)
File Type: pdf mv15.pdf (520.4 KB, 10 views)

Last edited by Pascal GUERIN; 6th May 2013 at 07:33 AM.
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Old 6th May 2013, 12:28 PM   #39
yov is offline yov  France
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pascal GUERIN View Post

Concerning the simulations of the two speaker D300P04 and 12BR70, see WINISD simulations : 12 BR70 / 90l / 35 hz - D300P04 - 60 l - 30 hz both 350 Hz low pass first order.
On both setups, If you look at your response at 25Hz, there is nothing left (around 76dB)...

If you choose 87L for the Atohm D300P04 with a vent resonance frequency at 25Hz, you obtain almost 86dB at 25Hz (please see simulation in attachment).



Regarding the response of the 16GKLV6M, you are right ! It is not linear at all starting at 2000Hz. So I think the option of cutting off with a second order will mask all those non-linearities above 2000Hz but you need a tweeter capable of going down to 2000Hz.

On my side, the first order cutting off at 4000Hz turns out to be not so bad because it will attenuate the response peak of the 16GKLV6M around 4000Hz with a -3dB attenuation. As for the seconde peak at 15KHz, you will have -15dB of filtering at this point (~78dB response), so it will be completely hidden by the tweeter 92dB at this point.
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File Type: jpg Presse-papiers-1.jpg (123.1 KB, 22 views)
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Old 6th May 2013, 12:57 PM   #40
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Classical design of crossover are made to match LR4 accoustic slopes between medium and tweeter.

This can be usualy done by inserting a second order electrical low pass crossover on the medium and a third order electrical high pass on the tweeter.

I can't presume of the transfert fonction of a crossover without simulations.

QB3 alignment for D300P04 is 52l tuned to 33 hz.
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