hi audio friends,
I use a behringer 3400 active crossover and looking for a better one I came across with the DBX 260 DriveRack but what I really wanna know is if all the DBX features will be useful for a home audio utilization. As I saw it has a complete control system for speakers, if I also buy the mic of course...
dbx DriveRack 260 Complete Equalization and Loudspeaker Control System | Musician's Friend
https://www.google.com.br/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CDwQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.behringer.com%2Fassets%2FCX3400_P0100_M_EN.pdf&ei=D2UQUe-TNYuo9gSRjIG4BA&usg=AFQjCNG-y50kzI-stf_UDrffknJtBroGog&sig2=Jbn5KmD4ha3kMZy06yN7bQ&bvm=bv.41867550,d.eWU
I use a behringer 3400 active crossover and looking for a better one I came across with the DBX 260 DriveRack but what I really wanna know is if all the DBX features will be useful for a home audio utilization. As I saw it has a complete control system for speakers, if I also buy the mic of course...
dbx DriveRack 260 Complete Equalization and Loudspeaker Control System | Musician's Friend
https://www.google.com.br/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CDwQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.behringer.com%2Fassets%2FCX3400_P0100_M_EN.pdf&ei=D2UQUe-TNYuo9gSRjIG4BA&usg=AFQjCNG-y50kzI-stf_UDrffknJtBroGog&sig2=Jbn5KmD4ha3kMZy06yN7bQ&bvm=bv.41867550,d.eWU
Well you won't use the feedback suppressor, auto gain, compression and doubtfully limiting, the good news is you can turn all that stuff off.
I have these in home use and like them a lot. They sound fine, have no power on/off pops, have very good signal to noise, even on horns.
I don't use the RTA auto EQ, RTA has real limitations, especially in small rooms.
I wouldn't entertain the DBX PA, the 260 is well worth the extra money.
Signal Delay and Parametric EQ are incredibly powerful tools but you really need a real measurement rig, (and the requisite knowledge to use it) to really take advantage of them.
More if you want.
I have these in home use and like them a lot. They sound fine, have no power on/off pops, have very good signal to noise, even on horns.
I don't use the RTA auto EQ, RTA has real limitations, especially in small rooms.
I wouldn't entertain the DBX PA, the 260 is well worth the extra money.
Signal Delay and Parametric EQ are incredibly powerful tools but you really need a real measurement rig, (and the requisite knowledge to use it) to really take advantage of them.
More if you want.
I think Behringer is a hit or miss. If you end up getting a good copy, you are in luck. I am currently using the 3400 and am really pleased with it. One of the drivers it powers is close to 110db sensitivity and I do not have any problems with hiss or noise as other people complain.
That said, however, I have thought about upgrading it. 2 crossovers that audiophiles always brag about are the Accuphase F25 and the Bryston 10B, but these are to expensive for me to buy without really knowing what I am going to gain over the behringer. I thought about Marchand electronics. they seem to have great products that you can tailor to your needs. You should look into Marchand for active analog crossovers.
in terms of DSP, I think you either need one like DEQX that can act as both you DAC and the crossover or it is too much of a compromise. I have not tried one personally, but i always thought that you may introduce too many variables where you sonic performance may be jeopardized. Specifically thinking about A/D and D/A conversion that goes on in DSPs.
That said, however, I have thought about upgrading it. 2 crossovers that audiophiles always brag about are the Accuphase F25 and the Bryston 10B, but these are to expensive for me to buy without really knowing what I am going to gain over the behringer. I thought about Marchand electronics. they seem to have great products that you can tailor to your needs. You should look into Marchand for active analog crossovers.
in terms of DSP, I think you either need one like DEQX that can act as both you DAC and the crossover or it is too much of a compromise. I have not tried one personally, but i always thought that you may introduce too many variables where you sonic performance may be jeopardized. Specifically thinking about A/D and D/A conversion that goes on in DSPs.
I'm not picking on you gago but it is incredible how often you here this, from folks who worry about something they have never tried.
My two bits, the gains made with the correct use of signal delay, Parametric EQ and a full pallet of crossover options more than make up for the possible signal degradation of one more DA-AD conversion. Maybe it's just me.
No offense take, Audiohack! Everything is a compromise. You are probably right in case of most pre-made speakers out there that need equalization. However, carefully chosen drivers and positioning may get way of the delay and equalization problems. My simple RF7ii speakers with Fostex supertweeters are power by 3 different amps with the behringer 3400 crossover. My room response is within +/- 2.5db at 4-5 meters. The 1.2khz dip and rise will soon be corrected with a change in the midrange compression driver. Also, goo active analog x-overs do have time delay adjustment option. (excused the bass, it is ta case of personal preference to have the bass boost)
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
When you say 'a real measurement rig' it's because the RTA of the DBX is not good enough? if that's true its sad, because it was this feature that was impressing me...
Please tell me more about it, you use 24db or 48db? the phase adjustment is good?
thx all for the kindly responses.
Hi murillollirum;
It's not that the RTA in the DBX isn't good enough, it's simply the limitations of RTA. RTA is time blind, it knows the spectral content of the pink noise that it sends out, what it doesn't know is if the noise coming back through the mic is from the speakers or the jet flying by, the truck driving by or a standing wave in the room. Below is how to avoid trouble when using RTA in small rooms and or reverberant spaces:
f = frequency
c = speed of sound (in any metric you prefer, just keep it all the same)
RLD = Room Largest Dimension (same metric as above)
RSD = Room Smallest Dimension (same metric as above)
The region where the acoustical performance of the space is mode dominated is bounded by the first mode of the space where f =.5C/RLD up to the highest where f = 3C / RSD. This is where RTA will lie to you, EQ can't help you, absorption is really your only weapon and your ears are your best tool.
Multiply the speed of sound by three, divide the answer by the rooms smallest dimension, eg 1130 X 3 =3390 / 8' =423.75 Hz. Divide the speed of sound by two, divide the answer. Y the rooms largest dimension, eg 1130 / 2 = 565 / 20' = 28.25 Hz.
In the above example the region between 28 and 425 Hz is where modes dominate and cannot be controlled by EQ. Lowering certain bands of energy put into the room can only help by not aggravating the beast, but then you have limited the dynamics of the system.
RTA cannot give you good information in this region and EQ can't really help.
That said, RTA is a very usefull tool when used correctly within it's limitations, think of it like a tape measure, one end of it is dumb, it takes a smart person on at least one end of it for it to be of much use. RTA is in one domain (time) dumb, so you have to be the smart one.
More if you want,
Barry.
It's not that the RTA in the DBX isn't good enough, it's simply the limitations of RTA. RTA is time blind, it knows the spectral content of the pink noise that it sends out, what it doesn't know is if the noise coming back through the mic is from the speakers or the jet flying by, the truck driving by or a standing wave in the room. Below is how to avoid trouble when using RTA in small rooms and or reverberant spaces:
f = frequency
c = speed of sound (in any metric you prefer, just keep it all the same)
RLD = Room Largest Dimension (same metric as above)
RSD = Room Smallest Dimension (same metric as above)
The region where the acoustical performance of the space is mode dominated is bounded by the first mode of the space where f =.5C/RLD up to the highest where f = 3C / RSD. This is where RTA will lie to you, EQ can't help you, absorption is really your only weapon and your ears are your best tool.
Multiply the speed of sound by three, divide the answer by the rooms smallest dimension, eg 1130 X 3 =3390 / 8' =423.75 Hz. Divide the speed of sound by two, divide the answer. Y the rooms largest dimension, eg 1130 / 2 = 565 / 20' = 28.25 Hz.
In the above example the region between 28 and 425 Hz is where modes dominate and cannot be controlled by EQ. Lowering certain bands of energy put into the room can only help by not aggravating the beast, but then you have limited the dynamics of the system.
RTA cannot give you good information in this region and EQ can't really help.
That said, RTA is a very usefull tool when used correctly within it's limitations, think of it like a tape measure, one end of it is dumb, it takes a smart person on at least one end of it for it to be of much use. RTA is in one domain (time) dumb, so you have to be the smart one.
More if you want,
Barry.
Hi Barry,
thx fr the private lesson
So we have to use our ears to judge the best EQ... tell something about EQ, do you really use? is it necessary to have a better result?
About the crossover, so you think that I will have a better result with this DBX even though I still not use the most of features?
thx fr the private lesson
So we have to use our ears to judge the best EQ... tell something about EQ, do you really use? is it necessary to have a better result?
About the crossover, so you think that I will have a better result with this DBX even though I still not use the most of features?
I do. But then again, I have a DCX.
When I get around to replacing the power supply and analogs, maybe my view will improve. For now, it stays on my test bench for my development work and my main system has.... ta-da! A cheap analog Behringer still in it.
It always ends at the what you hear, or it should. The problem is there are many things that I don't think we can *directly* discern by ear. Truly good driver integration is no trivial task and then speaker system integration into the room can be as difficult. I don't remember where I read it but it went something like: "When the number of variables approach an order of magnitude, I turn in despair to my measurement apparatus." Well, there's lots of variables in audio and meaningfull data is necessary to get beyond average results.
I don't mean for you to think that RTA is useless, in the example room a few posts back, RTA becomes usefull somwere above 400Hz where the room is not mode dominated and used correctly within it's limitations RTA is very useful.
Sorry I'm not sure what you're asking about EQ, specifically? I use both PEQ and GEQ and again when used properly, the results can be stunning.
As for the DBX, or like units, I don't know of any that are stripped down for home use so there will be some utility that you pay for but won't use in most if not all of them. As for better results? These little black boxes are increadibly powerful tools that with out a doubt hold the promise of near magic if fully expoited though few there be that use them to their potential.
I don't mean for you to think that RTA is useless, in the example room a few posts back, RTA becomes usefull somwere above 400Hz where the room is not mode dominated and used correctly within it's limitations RTA is very useful.
Sorry I'm not sure what you're asking about EQ, specifically? I use both PEQ and GEQ and again when used properly, the results can be stunning.
As for the DBX, or like units, I don't know of any that are stripped down for home use so there will be some utility that you pay for but won't use in most if not all of them. As for better results? These little black boxes are increadibly powerful tools that with out a doubt hold the promise of near magic if fully expoited though few there be that use them to their potential.
I really think it will. The weak part is the analog section, followed by the power supply. Not hard to fix.
Not that hard if you can see. I have been battling getting my glasses correct. SMT is a pain if you can't see it. I got some "practice" kits with SMT and vision is really the only problem. I keep waiting to find one of those cheap dissecting microscopes on e-bay, but seems word is out.
Lots of threads out there. Jan's designed boards are way out of what I am willing to spend, so DIY. What surprises me is my analog Behringer, though not great, is much quieter. Basically the same IO. It needs turn and turn off muting that's for sure. A project for some day.
Lots of threads out there. Jan's designed boards are way out of what I am willing to spend, so DIY. What surprises me is my analog Behringer, though not great, is much quieter. Basically the same IO. It needs turn and turn off muting that's for sure. A project for some day.
I am holding out for one or perhaps two of these
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/215379-dsp-xover-project-part-2-a.html
I tried the Behringer 2496 DCX in my horn system quite extensively and modded it a bit have given up for awhile and look forward to trying the above.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/215379-dsp-xover-project-part-2-a.html
I tried the Behringer 2496 DCX in my horn system quite extensively and modded it a bit have given up for awhile and look forward to trying the above.
On the DBX units, much of the design effort is centered on pro-audio live presentations. The audio guy wants to go into a room and setup quickly. The cross-over has pre-sets for pro-audio amps and for pro-audio speakers. And the quick and dirty "RTA" EQ. So you pay a lot for features that you will never use. Plus during set-up you have to deal with these features.
Now the good points about DBX are that when they build a unit they expect it to operate correctly for a long, long time and the specification sheet is very, very conservative. While the other company has always had reliability and warranty problems and the specs are for one perfect unit that they took great care when measuring.
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