WIN ISD Pro and multiway design - Page 11 - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Loudspeakers > Multi-Way

Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 12th March 2013, 11:53 AM   #101
just another
diyAudio Moderator
 
wintermute's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sydney
Blog Entries: 22
Steve, can you zip up your frd and zma files and upload them, and also upload the circuit that you have come up with using PCD? I've not had a lot of time lately but I might have a chance to have a bit of a play. Just looking at the graphs as you have uploaded I'm not sure, mainly because I can't see the phase info on them. The actual frequency response doesn't look too bad... roughly +- 2.5db from about 70Hz to 10Khz.

You may need some attenuation on the mid and high in reality, as I am assuming your frd files don't take into consideration baffle step, but it looks like a good start, and I'm sure it will be streets ahead of any off the shelf crossover that you may have purchased

Tony.
__________________
Any intelligence I may appear to have is purely artificial!
Some of my photos
  Reply With Quote
Old 12th March 2013, 02:48 PM   #102
diyAudio Member
 
Kindhornman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Los Angeles, California
Stevenn.
Sorry that this got so complex, even the explanation leaves a bit to be desired. Even if you don't do this at least now you are aware of the conjugate network, or more commonly referenced as a tank circuit. Later if you continue down the road of development you can think about this and play with the circuit. I imagine that someone else has been lurking and reading this thread and some will try this method of correcting the load seen by the amplifier and see the improvements that can be made.

I would take up Wintermute's offer to help you to finalize your own speaker crossover. You will be far beyond most canned crossover design that you will realize from a simple crossover software program.

Steven
  Reply With Quote
Old 12th March 2013, 08:46 PM   #103
diyAudio Member
 
Moondog55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Norlane; Geelong: Victoria: Australia
Just keep all the information in the back of your mind for the next project.
For this build/ rebuild use the simplest solution
Nice offer Tony
__________________
QUOTE" The more I know, the more I know, I know (insert maniacal laugh >here<) NOTHING"
  Reply With Quote
Old 13th March 2013, 05:27 AM   #104
Stevenn is offline Stevenn  Australia
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Sydney
Thanks for replies and reassurance.
Kindhornman - Your post does deserve a thread of its own - you cannot rely on reaching a wide audience of lurkers.
I noticed a section in PCD on the RHS of main sheet in the 'active' section called 'impedance input equalisation' which may well relate to what you have been suggesting.

Wintermute - file attached, could not copy generic circuit diagrams as they seem to be protected. Thank you for your offer, there is a bottle of red in it for your trouble!

Cheers
Attached Files
File Type: zip Speaker reno.zip (4.1 KB, 1 views)
  Reply With Quote
Old 13th March 2013, 06:43 AM   #105
just another
diyAudio Moderator
 
wintermute's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sydney
Blog Entries: 22
Thanks Steve, I've downloaded and had a quick look. first tip. When you do the spl trace, try to do for as much of the frequency range that is visible on the spl graph. 2nd order slopes (which I think was the target) are still having an effect quite a way past the crossover point. I can understand why you would have done less, it is such a pain clicking away in spltrace I'll see how It goes but they might need to be extended

if you could do a screen grab of the woofer mid and tweeter cells on the left of PCD so I can see what you have set that would be a help and a good starting point for me rather than me just doing what I think That way I can look at it see if I would do something different, and if so I can say why.

edit: I can see why I couldn't see phase data too. There isn't any I'll have to look up how to do that (is something I';ve been meaning to look into anyway. Jeff has a tool from memory to extract the phase using a hilbert transform. Not something I've had to do as my measurements had good phase data). Having the proper phase data will definitely change how the simulation deals with the spl curves.

Tony.
__________________
Any intelligence I may appear to have is purely artificial!
Some of my photos

Last edited by wintermute; 13th March 2013 at 06:47 AM. Reason: comment about phase.
  Reply With Quote
Old 13th March 2013, 12:09 PM   #106
just another
diyAudio Moderator
 
wintermute's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sydney
Blog Entries: 22
Steve, you might also want to have a look at this link http://audio.claub.net/Simple%20Loud...r%20Design.pdf It is probably going a bit further than what you want to, but worth a read. Personally I'd rather do actual measurements than go to that level of trouble with the baffle diffraction modelling (though it is probably worth while on the mid driver), but then It did take me quite a few years to get to the point where I was able to take measurements that are useful, so perhaps I'm forgetting the hard bits

here is the tool for extracting minimum phase from response data. Loudspeaker Design Software
Quote:
This program also includes a Hilbert-Bode FFT Transform that allows you to extract the minimum phase from an frd or zma file. Once you have made all modifications to a file that you want to do then save the file as an frd file and then click the button for "Auto Extract Phase from FRD File", find that file, let the program extract the phase, and then save as the same file name (or another if you want) and the new file will contain the correct minimum phase data.


I haven't looked at this yet, as I had to do some work this evening, and only finished about 1/2 hour ago.

edit: this is probably helpful as well, I know the first few times I tried to use spltrace it was pretty frustrating! http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...e-instructions

Tony.
__________________
Any intelligence I may appear to have is purely artificial!
Some of my photos

Last edited by wintermute; 13th March 2013 at 12:15 PM. Reason: add spltrace link.
  Reply With Quote
Old 14th March 2013, 03:24 AM   #107
Stevenn is offline Stevenn  Australia
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Sydney
Thanks Tony for all yr help, far beyond what i was expecting.
Yes SPL trace is a little tedious.... i can redo them if you want. Phase info should be represented on PCD? There is no phase info on driver datasheets.
Sceeenshots attached, hope you can read them.
Please don't spend too much time on this and there is no urgency.

Cheers
Attached Files
File Type: zip screenshots.zip (584.0 KB, 1 views)
  Reply With Quote
Old 15th March 2013, 03:14 AM   #108
just another
diyAudio Moderator
 
wintermute's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sydney
Blog Entries: 22
I found a better tracing tool!!! SPL Copy - Speaker Frequency Response Automatic Trace Tool works quite well, and a lot less tedius than spltrace I just did the SB23.

The spltrace puts zero in the phase column. It needs to have "real" phase values. I'll see what I can do with the fr tool, hopefully it will create the phase data.

attached the result from the trace tool for the sb23

This will probably be a bit slow, I've been really flat out at work. but I'll try and do a little each day. It's a nice distraction from other stuff

Tony.
Attached Files
File Type: zip sb23.zip (4.5 KB, 2 views)
__________________
Any intelligence I may appear to have is purely artificial!
Some of my photos
  Reply With Quote
Old 15th March 2013, 11:45 AM   #109
just another
diyAudio Moderator
 
wintermute's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sydney
Blog Entries: 22
Hi Steve, I managed to get phase data, the phase extractor spreadsheet on Jeff's site I linked to above is a no brainer. I'm not 100% sure it is ok though as the mid's phase seems to wrap too many times. I'll see how it goes.

Quick question. What are your baffle dimentions? and roughly where will the woofer, mid, and tweeter be on that baffle. The Response modeller spreadsheet looks pretty powerful so I want to have a play with it

Tony.
__________________
Any intelligence I may appear to have is purely artificial!
Some of my photos
  Reply With Quote
Old 15th March 2013, 12:39 PM   #110
just another
diyAudio Moderator
 
wintermute's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sydney
Blog Entries: 22
Hi Steve,

I've played around with the mid frd file a bit. It seems to get better looking phase data if I start it from around 50Hz. I think it is good enough for modelling.

I've attached all three speakers with retraced spl impedance data and the phase data added. Plug them into PCD and see what difference (if any) you get.

I've not yet tried putting these into pcd. Time for bed

Tony.
Attached Files
File Type: zip with_phase.zip (15.7 KB, 3 views)
__________________
Any intelligence I may appear to have is purely artificial!
Some of my photos

Last edited by wintermute; 15th March 2013 at 12:52 PM. Reason: add attachment.
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Unconventional Speaker Design - thread carried over from multiway forum morgoe Full Range 59 30th October 2012 11:17 AM
Ideas and approaches to dialing in an active multiway design ?? flatfinger Multi-Way 4 17th October 2011 12:28 PM
Win XP Pro keeps alerting usb device Bengali Everything Else 5 16th April 2010 09:20 PM
Active multiway speaker design? leadbelly Multi-Way 12 23rd May 2007 11:52 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 12:06 AM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2