48db/oct crossovers causing listening fatigue? - Page 5 - diyAudio
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Old 17th January 2013, 03:46 PM   #41
Bazukaz is offline Bazukaz  Lithuania
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Hi,

I see I have started an interesting discussion here . Thanks everyone for effort. A quote from a link in previous post :
Linkwitz-Riley Crossovers: A Primer :

"The caveat, though, is an increased difficulty in designing good systems with sharp slopes. The loudspeakers involved have differing transient responses, polar patterns and power responses. This means the system designer must know the driver characteristics thoroughly. Ironically, sometimes loudspeaker overlap helps the system blend better even when on-axis amplitude response is flat."

It is interesting because I have assumed in the past the steeper slope the better. That assumption has changed when I have listened to various configurations, as playing with miniDSP is so easy, and you can load all configuration at once. 48db vs 24db filters make a very audible difference all else being equal.
Still I believe if filter order is too low then distortion, cone break ups and resonances can come into play, so 24db/oct is now my choice.
Also its good hear I am not the only one having listening fatigue from using 48db/oct filters.

Regards,
Lukas.

Last edited by Bazukaz; 17th January 2013 at 03:50 PM.
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Old 17th January 2013, 03:59 PM   #42
ra7 is offline ra7  United States
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This is silly, really. It does not matter what electrical filters you are using. What matters is the acoustical target. For a woofer crossing at 700 Hz, you may have an acoustical LR4 target, but it is very likely you would need a 400 Hz BW 3rd order electrical filter to get there. However, on the tweeter you may need an 2nd order LR at 1000 Hz to get to the acoustical target. You cannot simply flip from 8th order to 4th order and proclaim one better than the other. Proper on-axis summing with good phase overlap through the crossover, matching the directivity to ensure smooth transition, ensuring the drivers are not running into distortion outside their passbands, and notching out anomalies are all things that need to be considered.
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Old 17th January 2013, 04:32 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by ra7 View Post
This is silly, really. It does not matter what electrical filters you are using. What matters is the acoustical target. For a woofer crossing at 700 Hz, you may have an acoustical LR4 target, but it is very likely you would need a 400 Hz BW 3rd order electrical filter to get there. However, on the tweeter you may need an 2nd order LR at 1000 Hz to get to the acoustical target. You cannot simply flip from 8th order to 4th order and proclaim one better than the other. Proper on-axis summing with good phase overlap through the crossover, matching the directivity to ensure smooth transition, ensuring the drivers are not running into distortion outside their passbands, and notching out anomalies are all things that need to be considered.
If you are not listening to your speakers on-axis, is it still best to aim for a flat on-axis response? Would you definitely not want to achieve a flat response at the angle you will be listening at? (That's a genuine question, by the way!)
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Old 17th January 2013, 04:46 PM   #44
ra7 is offline ra7  United States
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This is slightly OT, CopperTop, but I'll give you my take on your question. If you're listening at some angle and try to make it flat there, then there is a chance that the on-axis has a rising response. This is never good, IME. It gives a bright character to the sound, which at first seems nice, coz you can hear so much more detail, but eventually, it becomes fatiguing.

Now, if you have a constant directivity waveguide, where the off-axis response is nearly the same as the on-axis response, then you can make it flat everywhere by ensuring it's flat on-axis. But then you also need to match it to the response of the woofer, i.e., cross to it just when it starts becoming directional.

If you're doing conventional cone and dome, best to make it flat on-axis and have the off-axis be smooth replicas of the on-axis, except in the HF where a falling response is expected. The research says holes in the power response are acceptable, peaks are not. Also, flat power usually sounds bright.

Check out these measurements:

http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/mea...ultima_salon2/

http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/mea...ers/kef_201-2/

These will sound good, IME.

Last edited by ra7; 17th January 2013 at 04:49 PM.
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Old 17th January 2013, 06:17 PM   #45
puppet is offline puppet  United States
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This is silly, really. It does not matter what electrical filters you are using.
I don't think it's silly at all ... and as you later point out, the choices ultimately effect the acoustic responses. I believe this is what the OP is beginning to hear (see) for himself. Hence the reasoning for posting the topic.
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Old 17th January 2013, 08:03 PM   #46
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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Harmonics, too, matter.
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Old 17th January 2013, 09:25 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by CopperTop View Post
If you are not listening to your speakers on-axis, is it still best to aim for a flat on-axis response? Would you definitely not want to achieve a flat response at the angle you will be listening at? (That's a genuine question, by the way!)
Speaker is two port, in and out, if trying to modify response then measurement point must be chosen, and might as well be close to listening axis.

On the other hand, measurement of bare circular driver or such centered on circular baffle produces worst case circular diffraction pattern (Bessel function?). A measurement taken a few degrees off axis with well behaved driver is solution for all points in plane of measurement perpendicular to driver axis that are equidistant from intersection of plane and driver axis. Now for region +/- few degrees of measurement point an area is bounded in the plane with much greater surface area than circular spot about driver axis in same plane with same angular spread.

Maybe built in advantage in two-way when measuring normal plane bisecting acoustic centers of drivers?

I make point of not measuring exactly on driver axis.....
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Old 17th January 2013, 09:29 PM   #48
ra7 is offline ra7  United States
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Right, in a two-way, the midpoint in the vertical dimension between the two drivers is the best place to design a crossover. You will get symmetrical lobes about that axis. Of course, we know how you hate lobes, Andrew
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Old 17th January 2013, 09:29 PM   #49
ra7 is offline ra7  United States
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Harmonics, too, matter.
What are you saying, Pano?
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Old 17th January 2013, 11:03 PM   #50
tvrgeek is offline tvrgeek  United States
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My recent experience is dealing between the mains and subs. I find the steeper the better. 4th or 6th electrical. From listening to others speakers, some of the best have had very shallow crossovers. I just have never found drivers I thought suitable for first order electrical. As was commented on before, it could also depend a lot if you are aligning the crossover with the acoustical rolloff. I don't always do that due to staying away from breakup or just too much distortion in the drivers lower end.
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