Hey guys, great resource this site is!
Basically I'm trying to build a speaker for a bit of fun and obviously to use if all goes well and it sounds good (ha!). Honestly, I've only lurked this site for a couple of days but got excited and decided I'd just get stuck into it, hopefully with some guidance everything will end well or at least I would have learnt something
So far I've followed this guide and built a crossover for some jaycar speakers (response 8" woofer, 25mm titanium tweeter ***are these even a good pair?***) for a crossover frequency of 2000Hz. I plugged it in to my amp and it works and actually sounded alright (lacked real bass but didnt have an enclosure, just a test).
I was really hoping I could get some feedback on the crossover if I listed the parts I used or posted a picture. Seeing as the crossover is crucial I want to get it right and although mine currently works, to me it seems to be a pretty basic build having followed a 'beginners' guide (it might be fine, i just dont know!) and so theres probably room for improvement.
Before I get to into enclosure design (or will this also have an affect the crossover design?) I want to get all the electronics sorted and hopefully jaycar bits will allow me to build something decent.
I hope I'm not being too much of a pain asking btw
Cheers.
Basically I'm trying to build a speaker for a bit of fun and obviously to use if all goes well and it sounds good (ha!). Honestly, I've only lurked this site for a couple of days but got excited and decided I'd just get stuck into it, hopefully with some guidance everything will end well or at least I would have learnt something
So far I've followed this guide and built a crossover for some jaycar speakers (response 8" woofer, 25mm titanium tweeter ***are these even a good pair?***) for a crossover frequency of 2000Hz. I plugged it in to my amp and it works and actually sounded alright (lacked real bass but didnt have an enclosure, just a test).
I was really hoping I could get some feedback on the crossover if I listed the parts I used or posted a picture. Seeing as the crossover is crucial I want to get it right and although mine currently works, to me it seems to be a pretty basic build having followed a 'beginners' guide (it might be fine, i just dont know!) and so theres probably room for improvement.
Before I get to into enclosure design (or will this also have an affect the crossover design?) I want to get all the electronics sorted and hopefully jaycar bits will allow me to build something decent.
I hope I'm not being too much of a pain asking btw
Cheers.
I see sreten forgot the links. He has good ones, so I won't go there.
Just a perspective: They call these "loudspeaker systems" for a reason. The drivers, crossover, and cabinet are all inter-related. For that matter the room is too. You can't really understand or design one part at a time. Believe it or not, the radius of the front baffle can effect the choice of components in the crossover. Yes the radius. Add driver placement and dimensions to the equation.
I recommend building an established simple design. Let the forum members here help you understand why it was designed the way it was. Go through understanding measurements and beginning to measure them yourself. You will get much better satisfaction the more you learn. Better speakers too. Then you can start second guessing the design, changing the cabinet, changing the crossover, until eventually you are designing for yourself.
Just a perspective: They call these "loudspeaker systems" for a reason. The drivers, crossover, and cabinet are all inter-related. For that matter the room is too. You can't really understand or design one part at a time. Believe it or not, the radius of the front baffle can effect the choice of components in the crossover. Yes the radius. Add driver placement and dimensions to the equation.
I recommend building an established simple design. Let the forum members here help you understand why it was designed the way it was. Go through understanding measurements and beginning to measure them yourself. You will get much better satisfaction the more you learn. Better speakers too. Then you can start second guessing the design, changing the cabinet, changing the crossover, until eventually you are designing for yourself.
oops, rgds, sreten.
http://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/diy
(see if nothing else, the excellent FAQs)
The Speaker Building Bible
Zaph|Audio
Zaph|Audio - ZA5 Speaker Designs with ZA14W08 woofer and Vifa DQ25SC16-04 tweeter
FRD Consortium tools guide
http://web.archive.org/web/200909021...esigningXO.htm
RJB Audio Projects
http://web.archive.org/web/200909022...ve99/Spkrbldg/
Speaker Design Works
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=28655
A Speaker project
DIY Loudspeakers
Humble Homemade Hifi
Quarter Wavelength Loudspeaker Design
Pi Speakers - unmatched quality and state-of-the-art performance
The Frugal-Horns Site -- High Performance, Low Cost DIY Horn Designs
6.283 Audio Pages
Linkwitz Lab - Loudspeaker Design
Music and Design
Great free SPICE Emulator : SPICE-Based Analog Simulation Program - TINA-TI - TI Software Folder
http://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/diy
(see if nothing else, the excellent FAQs)
The Speaker Building Bible
Zaph|Audio
Zaph|Audio - ZA5 Speaker Designs with ZA14W08 woofer and Vifa DQ25SC16-04 tweeter
FRD Consortium tools guide
http://web.archive.org/web/200909021...esigningXO.htm
RJB Audio Projects
http://web.archive.org/web/200909022...ve99/Spkrbldg/
Speaker Design Works
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=28655
A Speaker project
DIY Loudspeakers
Humble Homemade Hifi
Quarter Wavelength Loudspeaker Design
Pi Speakers - unmatched quality and state-of-the-art performance
The Frugal-Horns Site -- High Performance, Low Cost DIY Horn Designs
6.283 Audio Pages
Linkwitz Lab - Loudspeaker Design
Music and Design
Great free SPICE Emulator : SPICE-Based Analog Simulation Program - TINA-TI - TI Software Folder
re:" ***are these even a good pair?***" - Jaycar drivers usually aren't very good quality, for not much extra money there are better alternatives, Wavecor, Visaton from Soundlabs Group; SB, Peerless, Vifa from Wagner or Essential Audio; Unfortunately there is now no local SEAS distributor, but they're still good value even if you have to import them from Madisound
re:"will this also have an affect the crossover design?" - enclosure width affects baffle step, which is often compensated for in the crossover
re:"will this also have an affect the crossover design?" - enclosure width affects baffle step, which is often compensated for in the crossover
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Jaycar are not as speaker builder friendly as they were a dozen years ago.
Try
SpeakerBug, capacitors, inductors, resistors, crossover parts, speaker supplies
Which woofers?
An 8 inch is starting to become difficult to cross to a cheap tweeter as most cheap tweeters need to be crossed quite a bit higher than the ideal XO point for a big woofer.
tvrgeek is right on the money. you need to design the whole thing together, so deciding on the box type and box size is part of that process.
I just checked the Jaycar website and I can't see the TS data for the tweeter but I imagine the Fs ( resonant frequency ) of the tweeter is around 1200/1500 Hz so normal usage suggests crossing over at least two octaves higher than that, around 4 or 5k and 2500/3000 if using a second order XO at a minimum although these rules are often broken it is a good starting point when beginning.
Try
SpeakerBug, capacitors, inductors, resistors, crossover parts, speaker supplies
Which woofers?
An 8 inch is starting to become difficult to cross to a cheap tweeter as most cheap tweeters need to be crossed quite a bit higher than the ideal XO point for a big woofer.
tvrgeek is right on the money. you need to design the whole thing together, so deciding on the box type and box size is part of that process.
I just checked the Jaycar website and I can't see the TS data for the tweeter but I imagine the Fs ( resonant frequency ) of the tweeter is around 1200/1500 Hz so normal usage suggests crossing over at least two octaves higher than that, around 4 or 5k and 2500/3000 if using a second order XO at a minimum although these rules are often broken it is a good starting point when beginning.
Thanks for the replies! I thought it might have been too much seeing as
I'm essentially asking to be schooled on speaker design haha, a lot of forums arnt as nice.
Thanks, already in the first link I found something I'd be very interested in building (small 2-way floorstander) and I was hoping to build something like that with the parts I already bought for a budget lesson on speaker building. I have much more reading to do.
Fair enough, I was pretty aware everything would be completely interrelated but I guess I was more hoping for a quick fix and just build something for the sake of learning (I guess already have seeing as the crossover works, no idea where it ranks on sound though). The beginners crossover design guide made it seem so easy, and honestly it really was haha! Great article. Again, more research I suppose.
Yeah I didnt expect much from jaycar, it was more the convenience of having everything I needed in one place to quickly throw some parts together and produce some sound. They even had blank 2-way crossover circuit boards with some more simple instructions on pairing resistors, inductors and capacitors, all I did was solder!
I was hoping to make a smallish sized floorstander (and hopefully build 2) and not need a dedicated subwoofer although I had doubts on whether jaycars woofer is capable. All a good bit of fun though.
Yeah thats what I found searching around, apparently even the specs jaycar give on their current speakers are hit and miss :S. This only caused more problems because the specs they give lack a lot of info that all the design software needs to calculate box design.. way too much of an impulse buy I guess haha **could anyone suggest my best option still using the jaycar parts?**
I suspected that the tweeter might be a bit 'too' cheap. I guess jaycar sold premade 2-way crossovers at 3500kHz for a reason then, seems to be tuned for their tweeters. Problem is, the woofer was rated to 4.5kHz so is a crossover frequency of 3500kHz suitable if it should be a couple octaves lower? Maybe compromise at 3000kHz? How much will this even effect the system as a whole?
Thanks for taking the time to reply btw, very helpful! I guess I was hoping there was almost a shortcut for a quick build and just plug in a few numbers but it seems I lucked out (of course I could just build a quick box and be done with it but why not squeeze the best out of what I have). Probably best to stick with an existing design, I guess I just wanted the satisfaction of having build and designed 'everything' haha. Shame its much more complicated.
Thanks everyone!
I'm essentially asking to be schooled on speaker design haha, a lot of forums arnt as nice.
Thanks, already in the first link I found something I'd be very interested in building (small 2-way floorstander) and I was hoping to build something like that with the parts I already bought for a budget lesson on speaker building. I have much more reading to do.
Fair enough, I was pretty aware everything would be completely interrelated but I guess I was more hoping for a quick fix and just build something for the sake of learning (I guess already have seeing as the crossover works, no idea where it ranks on sound though). The beginners crossover design guide made it seem so easy, and honestly it really was haha! Great article. Again, more research I suppose.
Yeah I didnt expect much from jaycar, it was more the convenience of having everything I needed in one place to quickly throw some parts together and produce some sound. They even had blank 2-way crossover circuit boards with some more simple instructions on pairing resistors, inductors and capacitors, all I did was solder!
I was hoping to make a smallish sized floorstander (and hopefully build 2) and not need a dedicated subwoofer although I had doubts on whether jaycars woofer is capable. All a good bit of fun though.
Yeah thats what I found searching around, apparently even the specs jaycar give on their current speakers are hit and miss :S. This only caused more problems because the specs they give lack a lot of info that all the design software needs to calculate box design.. way too much of an impulse buy I guess haha **could anyone suggest my best option still using the jaycar parts?**
I suspected that the tweeter might be a bit 'too' cheap. I guess jaycar sold premade 2-way crossovers at 3500kHz for a reason then, seems to be tuned for their tweeters. Problem is, the woofer was rated to 4.5kHz so is a crossover frequency of 3500kHz suitable if it should be a couple octaves lower? Maybe compromise at 3000kHz? How much will this even effect the system as a whole?
Thanks for taking the time to reply btw, very helpful! I guess I was hoping there was almost a shortcut for a quick build and just plug in a few numbers but it seems I lucked out (of course I could just build a quick box and be done with it but why not squeeze the best out of what I have). Probably best to stick with an existing design, I guess I just wanted the satisfaction of having build and designed 'everything' haha. Shame its much more complicated.
Thanks everyone!
re:"**could anyone suggest my best option still using the jaycar parts?**" - Download ARTA, make a simple jig, & measure the driver parameters.
Download Unibox, type in the parameters & design the box,
Read up a bit on crossovers, & ask lots of questions here, & design a simple 2nd order LR crossover with some baffle step compensation built in.
It'll take a few weeks, but you'll be well on the way to being an expert.....
Download Unibox, type in the parameters & design the box,
Read up a bit on crossovers, & ask lots of questions here, & design a simple 2nd order LR crossover with some baffle step compensation built in.
It'll take a few weeks, but you'll be well on the way to being an expert.....
Attachments
Read this thread too, as it has lots of information about the choices you need to think about making
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/25590-diyaudio-reference-speaker-project.html
Pete gave me a pair of those 8inch woofers a while ago, I'm of the opinion that they need to be crossed low, no higher than 400 or 500Hz. One thing you might consider is what is known as 2.5 Way speaker, pick a driver which has a good midrange reproduction and add a woofer using just a first order roll-off down low. I push this option rather than a dedicated 3-Way as it is much easier to get sounding OK without too much trial and error.
Where are you located??
What is your budget??
Other questions also need to be asked; such as how big is your room, how loud and which types of music do you listen to and is the room full of soft furniture or is it open and bare with hard wooden or tiled floors??
I would say tho that using that tweeter may make your job just a little harder and trying to match those 2 drivers without a midrange very hard indeed.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/25590-diyaudio-reference-speaker-project.html
Pete gave me a pair of those 8inch woofers a while ago, I'm of the opinion that they need to be crossed low, no higher than 400 or 500Hz. One thing you might consider is what is known as 2.5 Way speaker, pick a driver which has a good midrange reproduction and add a woofer using just a first order roll-off down low. I push this option rather than a dedicated 3-Way as it is much easier to get sounding OK without too much trial and error.
Where are you located??
What is your budget??
Other questions also need to be asked; such as how big is your room, how loud and which types of music do you listen to and is the room full of soft furniture or is it open and bare with hard wooden or tiled floors??
I would say tho that using that tweeter may make your job just a little harder and trying to match those 2 drivers without a midrange very hard indeed.
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ah...THOSE woofers... they're good for a bit of woof, but not much else...
(get a bit rough in the mids when you push them)
if I've got the model right, measured parameters (after burn in) will be approx:
Jaycar CW2196#1
Fs 37.00 Hz
Re 6.00 Ohm
Qms 2.38
Qes 0.32
Sd 187.0 cm2
Vas 36.5 l
Le 0.29 mH
I used them in pairs in 48L tuned to ~ 40 Hz (so 24 L for a single driver)
(get a bit rough in the mids when you push them)
if I've got the model right, measured parameters (after burn in) will be approx:
Jaycar CW2196#1
Fs 37.00 Hz
Re 6.00 Ohm
Qms 2.38
Qes 0.32
Sd 187.0 cm2
Vas 36.5 l
Le 0.29 mH
I used them in pairs in 48L tuned to ~ 40 Hz (so 24 L for a single driver)
re:"**could anyone suggest my best option still using the jaycar parts?**" - Download ARTA, make a simple jig, & measure the driver parameters.
Download Unibox, type in the parameters & design the box,
Read up a bit on crossovers, & ask lots of questions here, & design a simple 2nd order LR crossover with some baffle step compensation built in.
It'll take a few weeks, but you'll be well on the way to being an expert.....
Thanks for that, i'll have a look
are there any good guides for 2.5 way? I'll look into it but sometimes theres a gem of a source that i'll miss in the process
haha yeah, they were sitting there in the shop so I couldnt resist just buying something and having a crack! thankyou so much for those numbers btw! how do you think one in as a smallish floorstander (maybe 40-50L?) would fare? assuming id want some decent bass.
Thanks again!
To help out has any-one used the smaller Jaycar drivers
The best of the bunch looks on paper to be the 5inch as a midrange
5" Paper Cone Woofer/Midrange - Jaycar Electronics
While adding another driver adds to the cost and total complexity; midrange clarity is the focus of most of us.
The best of the bunch looks on paper to be the 5inch as a midrange
5" Paper Cone Woofer/Midrange - Jaycar Electronics
While adding another driver adds to the cost and total complexity; midrange clarity is the focus of most of us.
ok thanks, yeah that was the idea, keep it cheap for a bit of fun and once i understand the process better, spend money on good parts.
thanks
Do the arithmetic on the baffle step -3dB frequency ( some people use the -6dB ) F3 = 115 / WB (Width of Baffle) then select a coil for the woofer that acts on the woofers impedance at that frequency. If making a 3-Way then that frequency is often used as the XO frequency.
So for you baffle width of 300mm the answer is 383 Hertz and I don't think plus or minus 10% is going to make much difference.
300 to 400 is often suggested as an appropriate place to put the XO
More light reading
Baffle Step Compensation
It seems trying to use the 8'' in a 2-way will be average at best so id consider using jaycars 5'' woofer in a 3-way as id get better results.
Using the 8'' woofer and crossing over at 300-400Hz like suggested would id be recommended i design for a 5000Hz crossover for the mid? (jaycar specs list a difference in frequency response between 2kHz and 7kHz for the tweeter and mid).
Also, unless anyone has a simple calculator, jaycar has a diy crossover building table which suggests capacitors and inductors depending on what crossover frequencies you use (form their range of parts) and to keep it a budget learning project, should i just follow that guide? It also accounts for wiring in a 'tweeter atenuation' from 0- -4dB. Alternatively this would help me build a junk crossover and I should follow something else..
thanks
Using the 8'' woofer and crossing over at 300-400Hz like suggested would id be recommended i design for a 5000Hz crossover for the mid? (jaycar specs list a difference in frequency response between 2kHz and 7kHz for the tweeter and mid).
Also, unless anyone has a simple calculator, jaycar has a diy crossover building table which suggests capacitors and inductors depending on what crossover frequencies you use (form their range of parts) and to keep it a budget learning project, should i just follow that guide? It also accounts for wiring in a 'tweeter atenuation' from 0- -4dB. Alternatively this would help me build a junk crossover and I should follow something else..
thanks
re:"jaycar has a diy crossover building table" - NOOOOOO!!!! these tables are based on the nominal impedance of a driver, which is nothing like the ACTUAL impedance of the driver at the crossover frequency you're using. To find that, you need an impedance graph of the driver, (I'll see if I can dig mine out for that driver, may take a couple of days), then use that value in a crossover calculator such as this:
Crossover Design Calculators - that'll get you a much better crossover
To work out tweeter attenuation use this: L pad calculator - attenuation dB damping impedance decibel loudspeaker speaker voltage divider - sengpielaudio Sengpiel Berlin
Crossover Design Calculators - that'll get you a much better crossover
To work out tweeter attenuation use this: L pad calculator - attenuation dB damping impedance decibel loudspeaker speaker voltage divider - sengpielaudio Sengpiel Berlin
I have been thinking about this on your behalf (when I should have been plastering and painting LOL) perhaps you could return the tweeter and use the money to purchase a halfway decent 3 inch full range. Then all you need is one crossover in the range 300-400 or so.
3 inch drivers have a reasonable top end and the woofer you have will fill in the bottom quite well.
http://www.fostexinternational.com/docs/speaker_components/pdf/fe87.pdf
eBay Australia: Buy new & used fashion, electronics & home d?r
There are many other good cheapish 3 and 4 inch fullrange drivers around
I see lots of cheap computer speakers at our local recycle centre going for $5 or $10- a pair and some of them have quite reasonable little drivers in them
3 inch drivers have a reasonable top end and the woofer you have will fill in the bottom quite well.
http://www.fostexinternational.com/docs/speaker_components/pdf/fe87.pdf
eBay Australia: Buy new & used fashion, electronics & home d?r
There are many other good cheapish 3 and 4 inch fullrange drivers around
I see lots of cheap computer speakers at our local recycle centre going for $5 or $10- a pair and some of them have quite reasonable little drivers in them
Building a pretty decent sounding speaker system isn't too hard, with a little trial and error experimenting. Building a really good one is much more complicated. Internal cabinet shape and damping, and external listening room acoustics have a huge influence on what you will hear in the end. After reading the advice others have given you, I noticed several cases where the advice is actually quite complicated (Get ARTA and use to measure impedance, for ex.).
For a newbie, I'd actually recommend a closed box woofer, perhaps with a passive radiator made from a regular woofer so you can short the voice coil out for better damping if that works better. I've had great luck with that. It pumps up the low end in the least complicated way. For midrange, I'm thrilled with the $12 Peerless 3 inch drivers I've been playing with lately (check Parts Express or Madisound websites here in the US). They're great from about 200HZ to 12kHZ+. I'd put in a 3/4 inch dome tweeter crossed at 7kHZ or higher for the top end.
It's true that nominal impedance of any driver and actual impedance at the frequency you want to cross it over at will be way different. That's one of the reasons to keep a passive crossover simple. If you can figure out how to measure the impedance at these frequencies, you can be more accurate. For a newbie who can't find a published impedance graph, I might suggest assuming the driver has about twice the nominal impedance at the frequency you want to cross it over at (based on my experience), build a crossover based on that, and then vary the values if necessary until it sounds the best to your ear. Many people out there will condemn me for saying that, but in the real world, that may get you closer to accurate than any other approach, if you're a newbie. And yea, going from an 8 inch to a 1 inch tweeter will have pretty substantial off axis problems. Difficult to listen to over time. Too much upper midrange. There is a lot to be said for having good tone controls in you preamp. Those who hate tone controls are fools, or have had a very bad version of them. Hope this helps.
Check out my audio hobby website if interested. It's pretty advanced, but perhaps relatively understandable to a newbie. My "Aurium Waveguide" speaker project has a lot of discussion that you could learn from. Bob's Website
Bob's Website
For a newbie, I'd actually recommend a closed box woofer, perhaps with a passive radiator made from a regular woofer so you can short the voice coil out for better damping if that works better. I've had great luck with that. It pumps up the low end in the least complicated way. For midrange, I'm thrilled with the $12 Peerless 3 inch drivers I've been playing with lately (check Parts Express or Madisound websites here in the US). They're great from about 200HZ to 12kHZ+. I'd put in a 3/4 inch dome tweeter crossed at 7kHZ or higher for the top end.
It's true that nominal impedance of any driver and actual impedance at the frequency you want to cross it over at will be way different. That's one of the reasons to keep a passive crossover simple. If you can figure out how to measure the impedance at these frequencies, you can be more accurate. For a newbie who can't find a published impedance graph, I might suggest assuming the driver has about twice the nominal impedance at the frequency you want to cross it over at (based on my experience), build a crossover based on that, and then vary the values if necessary until it sounds the best to your ear. Many people out there will condemn me for saying that, but in the real world, that may get you closer to accurate than any other approach, if you're a newbie. And yea, going from an 8 inch to a 1 inch tweeter will have pretty substantial off axis problems. Difficult to listen to over time. Too much upper midrange. There is a lot to be said for having good tone controls in you preamp. Those who hate tone controls are fools, or have had a very bad version of them. Hope this helps.
Check out my audio hobby website if interested. It's pretty advanced, but perhaps relatively understandable to a newbie. My "Aurium Waveguide" speaker project has a lot of discussion that you could learn from. Bob's Website
Bob's Website
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