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Old 23rd December 2012, 10:53 PM   #61
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I agree with the poster that talked about capability in the 100-500 hz range for metal. I have discovered my own system is weak in this area while messing around with a quick and dirty line level baffle step circuit. I could get the tonal balance dialed in just right but the mids were strained (Seas Excel W15's) at a moderate level. I also needed more gain overall. Those SEOS-12 designs do look interesting. I bet metal sounds great on something like that. If it were me, maybe that Faital Pro 12PR300 design in a sealed cab with a couple of good subs.
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Old 23rd December 2012, 10:58 PM   #62
sreten is offline sreten  United Kingdom
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Hi,

Click the image to open in full size.


He knows what he's doing, a big power handling and SPL peak around the x/o frequency
of 400Hz by running the big bass unit high, and the big (for a mid) high as well, where they
effectively overlap you get high SPL with very low distortion. He is no mug, quite talented.

rgds, sreten.
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Last edited by sreten; 23rd December 2012 at 11:27 PM.
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Old 23rd December 2012, 11:14 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sreten View Post
Hi,

Well good luck with that, low B is inaudible on most hifi's, and impossible
live, why I switched back to standard E and dropped D for the E string.

Low A whist being 27.5Hz is pretty useless in most circumstances,
your only going to annoy a lot the bass player your ******* off.

Stepping on other peoples feet is not a good idea, unless its
unison stuff, if it it isn't, I for one wouldn't be interested.

rgds, sreten.
I am the bass player. Guitar territory I'm occasionally annoying.
Play a completely normal 4 string bass in D for most songs.
Drop tuned strings that aren't thick enough buzz on frets.
Or perhaps my bass just isn't of long enough gauge for D.
My knuckles swell from the clamping force after an hour.
Probably some arthritis action too...

For me, baritone guitar was an experiment in fatigue reduction.
Tuning AEADGB "the craw" was a further ergonomic consideration.
And octave drop, so I don't have to switch instruments mid song.

I could use the same stompbox to drop my bass rather than droptune,
but I get more versatility and extended knuckle life from the baritone.

Last edited by kenpeter; 23rd December 2012 at 11:39 PM.
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Old 24th December 2012, 12:00 AM   #64
sreten is offline sreten  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenpeter View Post
I am the bass player. Guitar territory I'm occasionally annoying.
Play a completely normal 4 string bass in D for most songs.
Drop tuned strings that aren't thick enough buzz on frets.
Or perhaps my bass just isn't of long enough gauge for D.
My knuckles swell from the clamping force after an hour.
Probably some arthritis action too...

For me, baritone guitar was an experiment in fatigue reduction.
Tuning AEADGB "the craw" was a further ergonomic consideration.
And octave drop, so I don't have to switch instruments mid song.

I could use the same stompbox to drop my bass rather than droptune,
but I get more versatility and extended knuckle life from the baritone.
Hi,

Fair enough if you are always the bass end.

rgds, sreten.

Still, guitar players can't play bass, though they think they can .
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Last edited by sreten; 24th December 2012 at 12:02 AM.
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Old 24th December 2012, 01:06 AM   #65
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@ Andrew
What you say is probably true for the stage but in a home sized room a good 8 inch has plenty of kick and grunt.
This is why I made the suggestion of the Eminence midrange in post #8
@Sreten
my daughter plays bass
Yamaha jazz bass and a fretless 5 string
Making a box that would play well for the lower notes was hard work, needed a quad with 2 * 15s and a pair of 12s, this were too much trouble for her to lug around tho ( school band) and they got turned into my part subwoofer boxes later on, so I sort of understand your argument but I do think the "Tarkus" while a great design needs something a little different to meet the OPs requirements
@kenpeter
I know exactly what you are saying there about the finger problem, it is one of the things that keeps my D at the garage ban level for fun, she's only a little tacker and while her day job means she is strong ( gardener ) her fingers hurt after playing for more than an hour or two. I have the same problem as my job is a cook and chef
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Old 24th December 2012, 01:29 AM   #66
JoshK is offline JoshK  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris661 View Post
Hi,

Not sure what the OP would consider heavy metal, but I'd expect these to be somewhere near.
Avenged Sevenfold - Buried Alive - YouTube *
Slipknot - Left Behind - YouTube

*The start isn't particularly "heavy", but it gets going by the end. I rather like this track - a rather good test, IMHO, of the sheer oomph of a system. Also check out "Nightmare", by the same artist.

There's also the usual Marilyn Manson etc.

Chris
Like the first link, prefer this by the second artist much more:
Slipknot - Wait And Bleed (Animated Version) - YouTube

Then again, never really liked Slipknot.

I am more into prog rock/metal. Love Porcupine Tree/Opeth/Katatonia/Tool, etc...

But I don't diss, just have preferences like anyone else.

The the OP's questions it all comes down to the 80-(100)hz -> 800hz range. This is the core of HM. Yeah there is stuff outside of, but a good 15" midwoofer mated to a good HF transducer (say CD on SEOS wg or such) will work way better than 6" + 1" dome. Take Klipsch cornwall as an example. Not the best example and a bit harsh, but way more rockin than typical audiophile 6.5" two way.
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Old 24th December 2012, 03:24 AM   #67
winslow is offline winslow  United States
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Order the compression drivers and waveguides from diysoundgroup and get the eminence delta 12s local. You should be way under budget and have something that can jam. Shipping will be as much as a pair of the dna350 compression drivers. Figure 300 bux us for the drivers, waveguides, and shipping.
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Old 24th December 2012, 03:41 AM   #68
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Hold the phone Guys !

Client has decided to go with the Eminence coaxs, either a 12" 2 way or a 10" plus sub.

Thanks all for your suggestions and the important information about metal's "Special Needs". I really appreciate all of your input.

Keep an eye out for the build pics when the project kicks off. (Which will be just after they finish putting up the new shed - I know, one damned thing after another...).

Kind Regards,
hotblakk desiato
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Old 24th December 2012, 03:58 AM   #69
freddi is offline freddi  United States
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the original Karlson 15 or similar bulk K-coupler should do a nice job and reach over 120dB peaks without much cone excursion.

Beta 12LTA is pretty sensitive and will play "loud" but it lacks motor strength for transient reproduction

Karlson K12s are pretty good but of course do not go "deep" - but in some music that doesn't matter as many speakers just sound "thuddy"

1 cubic foot of front chamber "volume" does well in the little X15 size K-couplers. K15 and larger may use 2.2-2.7 cubic feet.

a slotted pipe Karlson waveguide with competent compression driver can sound very good.

a few of my toys
Click the image to open in full size.

80 ounce magnet Eminence coax in 1960's K12
http://imageshack.us/a/img3/4994/jek4slitk12rear.jpg

109 ounce magnet version
http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/2...ercoaxrear.jpg
Carl's first X15 size coupler - - 28"x20"x15"
http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/687/x15atestbd9.jpg
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Old 24th December 2012, 06:31 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sreten View Post
and SPL peak around the x/o frequency
of 400Hz by running the big bass unit high, and the big (for a mid) high as well, where they
effectively overlap you get high SPL with very low distortion. He is no mug, quite talented.

rgds, sreten.
Sreten-
While there is actually a dip at 400 in that plot, I've heard the original Tarkus- in a large room with lots of power on tap playing Deftones. Paul is a personal friend of mine and I agree that this project should do most metal just fine as Paul likes quite a bit of that genre. Granted- I did not get to hear them at normal levels, but at moderate to loud they did achieve ear-bleeding levels with some slam. I don't know what they do on other stuff at lower levels.

Winslow- You'd be surprised what metal has for instruments if you include all of the metal subgenres.

chris661- MM is more of a shock-rock/industrial act. I would not call his stuff metal. A7 isn't a bad example. Slipknot is borderline to me, kinda 'nu-metal' as they say, since they even go light on material at times.

I'm really simplifying this list below, as there are multiple genres I'm omitting.
A list for those that smash things (or the arena I call 'metal'):
Meshuggah
Becoming the Archetype
Metanoia
Paramaecium (doom style)
Horde
Poems of Shadows
Amon Amarth
Sympathy
Tortured Conscience
Antestor

...throw in some cyber/industrial:
Screams of Chaos
Brainchild/Circle of Dust
Fear Factory

...orchestral:
Sonata Arctica
Nightwish

...prog-metal:
Dream Theater (and many more)

...hardcore/extreme:
Norma Jean
Converge
Zao
Hatebreed
As I Lay Dying
Lamb of God

...and nu-metal (not typically as heavy):
Slipknot
Disturbed
Tool
Killswitch Engage
5-Finger Death Punch

Just a synopsis to make sure which direction we're heading here...
Later,
Wolf
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