So most multi ways look identical. A few drive units, which I have been told all cost a few dollars to manufacture, sometimes mass produced in China, a cabinet and usually a 4th order crossover because its easy to design on a computer and provides the most protection from drivers which misbehave.
Clearly there is quite a big difference in the end result you hear (between all multi ways) yet it all looks deceptively simple and unremarkable. What is the most important factor? Some say it's the drive units. Is it the combination?
Clearly there is quite a big difference in the end result you hear (between all multi ways) yet it all looks deceptively simple and unremarkable. What is the most important factor? Some say it's the drive units. Is it the combination?
hmm............
I'll give it a whirl, I have nothing better to do right now.
Lets start with perfect drivers, totally pistonic, no resonances, no energy storage, no extra harmonics generated, and make them have high sensitivity so they don't sound constipated. Now let's get some drivers to play well with each other (say woof and tweet). Do we go minimal phase or super steep ? And where are we going to cross and why ? Oh yea, lets throw in the dispersion patterns also. And I hope it will meet your volume level, music type, room size, etc.
After all that, the room screws with much of your effort. You learn to use everything together. You flavor it with this amp over that amp, swap out some cables, move a coffee table, etc.
Then you pray you don't feel like trying anything different, but in the back of your mind you know that this setup had better detail, that setup was more dynamic or fun, and oh yea, that other setup you had smoked the other 2 in the voice department.
I know what I like, but tastes can change over the years also. And you can get more critical of how things sound. I do know it is good to have your old stuff lying around. Rearranging is a nice therapy for me. It's like I have my own stereo store to play with. I've revisited systems I had and go "ewww, I said that was an excellent setup ?" like my pioneer b20 and piezo crossed at 5khz. Now my ears hear the lack of detail and dispersion past 2khz probably and classify it as "bad".
It can be never ending.
I'll give it a whirl, I have nothing better to do right now.
Lets start with perfect drivers, totally pistonic, no resonances, no energy storage, no extra harmonics generated, and make them have high sensitivity so they don't sound constipated. Now let's get some drivers to play well with each other (say woof and tweet). Do we go minimal phase or super steep ? And where are we going to cross and why ? Oh yea, lets throw in the dispersion patterns also. And I hope it will meet your volume level, music type, room size, etc.
After all that, the room screws with much of your effort. You learn to use everything together. You flavor it with this amp over that amp, swap out some cables, move a coffee table, etc.
Then you pray you don't feel like trying anything different, but in the back of your mind you know that this setup had better detail, that setup was more dynamic or fun, and oh yea, that other setup you had smoked the other 2 in the voice department.
I know what I like, but tastes can change over the years also. And you can get more critical of how things sound. I do know it is good to have your old stuff lying around. Rearranging is a nice therapy for me. It's like I have my own stereo store to play with. I've revisited systems I had and go "ewww, I said that was an excellent setup ?" like my pioneer b20 and piezo crossed at 5khz. Now my ears hear the lack of detail and dispersion past 2khz probably and classify it as "bad".
It can be never ending.
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+1
Imagine yourself a phonon, recently escaped from an oboe's bell, wending your way to the ear of a listener far removed in space and time. Wait, that's not even possible, you say . . .
Perhaps the first question we need to ask is, are better speakers better? And my answer is YES.
Using commercial examples, If you hears the £999/pr Bowers Wilkins 683, they sound pretty good, nice warm bass, clear mids, crisp highs. But then you listen to the B&W CM9 which are £1799, these are incredibly clear and detailed speakers, and now you are in another world of speakers. But then you listen to the B&W 803 for £7500/pr, and the clarity and life-like sound will practically make you weep. And those ... are not the best speakers out there.
The first thing you need, is the ability to design your own drivers. Yes, there are some nice general purpose ready-made drivers out there, but it helps to be able to control every aspect of design and manufacturing.
For example, if you intend to use 2 bass drivers in a 2.5-way system, you might have them custom make 12 ohm drivers, which will result in a a workable 6 ohm impedance.
Making a fully pistonic driver is nice, but I suspect a ridged cone is going to have a limited frequency response. In a standard single driver full range speaker, the driver is not pistonic. At low frequency the entire driver cone moves, but at midrange, only the center section moves, and at high frequencies, only the very center dome area moves. The problem is, the high frequency comes and goes so quickly, that there isn't time to overcome the inertia of the full cone. That is why you see 'whizzer' cones attached to full range speakers.
So, general quality of components play a role. You can buy a woofer for $25 or you can buy a woofer for $250. Same with tweeters, you can select a basic tweeter for $20 to meet your needs, or you can spend $500 on a precision matched pair of high quality tweeters.
The point is, there is always a for the money element to any speaker design.
Next, crossover design; do you just assume the nominal impedance of the speaker - 8 ohms or whatever? Or to you measure the precise impedance at the crossover frequencies? Do you sufficiently understand the nature of the drivers to select the right crossover slope? For example, if you use Dayton Reference Aluminum drivers, they have a nasty break up just above with working frequency limit. Which means if you crossover in the typical ranges of a 2-way speaker, you need steep slopes to make sure you have sufficient attenuation when you reach that break up region.
Next is selecting the drivers themselves. If you want bass drives for a 2-way system, they you have to decide if you are going to sacrifice bass or midrange performance. As the bass goes down, so does the midrange. If the Midrange falls to low, it can go below the low limit of your tweeter. But to get the midrange up, the bass also comes up. Where and how much are you willing to sacrifice?
Despite manufacturer frequency response claims, most woofer are in their best working range below 1khz. Some are functional up to barely 2khz. So, what are you willing to sacrifice in one area to gain in another area?
That's one of the reasons I perfer 3-way speakers, it is lot easy to find drivers that work comfortably in their design range. Yet, 3-way systems have their own set of problem. 2-way, when done right can be superb ... when done right.
Then we move to cabinet design. YG Acoustics mills both their speaker driver cones, and their speaker cabinets out of blocks of aluminum. The Magico speakers have a complex ridged internal metal framework. Good speakers have many internal braces to make the cabinet as ridged and resonance free as possible.
Then there is the timing of the speaker. Some high end speakers, align the voice coils of all the drivers to get better time alignment. That makes for some funny looking but great sounding speakers.
Yes, all tower speakers pretty much look alike. But, what determines the price, is how much engineering you want to put into them, what expense are you willing to spend on quality of components, and how much time are you willing to dedicate to designing, testing, redesigning, test, and redesigning again. How much tweaking and measuring are you willing to do to get it right? And when it doesn't work, are you willing to and can you afford to abandon the design and start over?
And how much time and expense are you willing to spend to educate yourself to the level necessary to truly create stunning designs, even at an amateur level? And if you expect to work at a professional level, then plan on an engineering degree, years of apprenticeship, good natural instinct, and someone to provide you with near unlimited resources?
Don't all cars look pretty much the same? What makes a Hyundi worth what it is worth, and what makes a Rolls Royce worth what it is worth?
Steve/bluewizard
Using commercial examples, If you hears the £999/pr Bowers Wilkins 683, they sound pretty good, nice warm bass, clear mids, crisp highs. But then you listen to the B&W CM9 which are £1799, these are incredibly clear and detailed speakers, and now you are in another world of speakers. But then you listen to the B&W 803 for £7500/pr, and the clarity and life-like sound will practically make you weep. And those ... are not the best speakers out there.
The first thing you need, is the ability to design your own drivers. Yes, there are some nice general purpose ready-made drivers out there, but it helps to be able to control every aspect of design and manufacturing.
For example, if you intend to use 2 bass drivers in a 2.5-way system, you might have them custom make 12 ohm drivers, which will result in a a workable 6 ohm impedance.
Making a fully pistonic driver is nice, but I suspect a ridged cone is going to have a limited frequency response. In a standard single driver full range speaker, the driver is not pistonic. At low frequency the entire driver cone moves, but at midrange, only the center section moves, and at high frequencies, only the very center dome area moves. The problem is, the high frequency comes and goes so quickly, that there isn't time to overcome the inertia of the full cone. That is why you see 'whizzer' cones attached to full range speakers.
So, general quality of components play a role. You can buy a woofer for $25 or you can buy a woofer for $250. Same with tweeters, you can select a basic tweeter for $20 to meet your needs, or you can spend $500 on a precision matched pair of high quality tweeters.
The point is, there is always a for the money element to any speaker design.
Next, crossover design; do you just assume the nominal impedance of the speaker - 8 ohms or whatever? Or to you measure the precise impedance at the crossover frequencies? Do you sufficiently understand the nature of the drivers to select the right crossover slope? For example, if you use Dayton Reference Aluminum drivers, they have a nasty break up just above with working frequency limit. Which means if you crossover in the typical ranges of a 2-way speaker, you need steep slopes to make sure you have sufficient attenuation when you reach that break up region.
Next is selecting the drivers themselves. If you want bass drives for a 2-way system, they you have to decide if you are going to sacrifice bass or midrange performance. As the bass goes down, so does the midrange. If the Midrange falls to low, it can go below the low limit of your tweeter. But to get the midrange up, the bass also comes up. Where and how much are you willing to sacrifice?
Despite manufacturer frequency response claims, most woofer are in their best working range below 1khz. Some are functional up to barely 2khz. So, what are you willing to sacrifice in one area to gain in another area?
That's one of the reasons I perfer 3-way speakers, it is lot easy to find drivers that work comfortably in their design range. Yet, 3-way systems have their own set of problem. 2-way, when done right can be superb ... when done right.
Then we move to cabinet design. YG Acoustics mills both their speaker driver cones, and their speaker cabinets out of blocks of aluminum. The Magico speakers have a complex ridged internal metal framework. Good speakers have many internal braces to make the cabinet as ridged and resonance free as possible.
Then there is the timing of the speaker. Some high end speakers, align the voice coils of all the drivers to get better time alignment. That makes for some funny looking but great sounding speakers.
Yes, all tower speakers pretty much look alike. But, what determines the price, is how much engineering you want to put into them, what expense are you willing to spend on quality of components, and how much time are you willing to dedicate to designing, testing, redesigning, test, and redesigning again. How much tweaking and measuring are you willing to do to get it right? And when it doesn't work, are you willing to and can you afford to abandon the design and start over?
And how much time and expense are you willing to spend to educate yourself to the level necessary to truly create stunning designs, even at an amateur level? And if you expect to work at a professional level, then plan on an engineering degree, years of apprenticeship, good natural instinct, and someone to provide you with near unlimited resources?
Don't all cars look pretty much the same? What makes a Hyundi worth what it is worth, and what makes a Rolls Royce worth what it is worth?
Steve/bluewizard
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). It will answer many questions. Then, come back here so we can have a useful discussion.
What is the best sound..This is a very subjective phrase & open to any one particular interpretation. What sounds great to one may sound purely awful to another. The is a raging argument between those who gauge what sounds good vs. that which measures good. Often times those that measure, sound shockingly realistic. Take one saxiphone player, put him in your living room....play a recorded Sax solo....have your musician make the solo a duet.....close your eyes.....if you cant tell the difference between the two....in my opinion this is ..........best.
--------------------------------------------------------Rick..........
--------------------------------------------------------Rick..........
Oddly the original question was 'What GIVES the best sound?".
That is just as subjective as the alternate question "What [/i]IS[/i] the best sound?".
Then that is compounded by the point I raised, what is the best within a given budget.
I can think of some speakers for £13,000/pr that I would dearly love to have, and I have NO DOUBT that these are breathtaking speakers. But YIKES!!!! £13,000/pr.
Right now, the speaker I have (Diamond 9.6) were about $1000/pr (typical), though I paid less than half that for them. For the money I paid, absolutely they sound good. But, that said, I have heard better, though that 'better' cost substantially more money as well.
But, the OP hinted that this speaker for $500 looks just like that speaker for $5000. How do I know which is better, and how do I know which is worth the money? Though, I'm paraphrasing. ANSWER: Well, you go have a listen and decide for yourself. Or you read tons of reviews, and listen to as many YouTube videos as you can find that aren't total trash, and make a best guess judgement before ordering them unheard.
If you are planning to build speakers, especially if you are new at it, best to build an existing design until you get the hang of things. As to which design, budget is always the first consideration. Next, is the size of your room. They type of music you listen to, and perhaps, the acoustic of the room the speaker will be in. Your level of woodworking skills and available tools certainly comes into play.
For me, what gives the best sound, is quality drivers, in a well tuned box, with bass response preferably at or just below 30hz at -6dB. I like big drivers, since I'm old school. To the modern world 8" bass drivers are big, but to me, that is small. 6.5" are tiny, and 5" are toy speaker, but I grew up with 12" bass drivers being the common standard.
I also like a presence in the midrange, though not so much that it leaps out at you, crisp treble with cymbals that sizzle, and smooth bass, not overly exaggerated. I do prefer speakers that have Midrange drivers. So, 3-way or 3.5-way.
And finally, keep in mind that what one person may think is the 'best' may not be technically the best. Ask some teenage stoner what's best and it is all about window rattling bass with little or no thought to clarity. Who can say that person is wrong. If they are happy, that's what counts.
But I suspect when that same teen bass-head grows up, he is going to be searching for clarity and detail over roof raising bass.
So, whether building or buying, everything is tempered by budget. Then size of the room implies workable size of the drivers. Of course, She Who Must Be Obeyed and her wishes come into play. Most floorstanding speaker need a bit of room around them. Your room size and speaker placement can compromise "good" speakers and make them sound bad.
There are just too many factors, some very individual and personal, to make a definitive statement that this combination is the one that always works.
But I will say, from my perspective, there tends to be two schools of thought. Small well designed 2-way bookshelf with minimally complicated crossovers, and 3.5-way Tower/Floorstanding speakers. Though the precise application matters, I personally prefer the 3.5-way Tower speakers. Though, back in the day when Dinosaurs roamed the earth, I certainly had a love of 12" 3-way speakers.
For what its worth.
Steve/bluewizard
That is just as subjective as the alternate question "What [/i]IS[/i] the best sound?".
Then that is compounded by the point I raised, what is the best within a given budget.
I can think of some speakers for £13,000/pr that I would dearly love to have, and I have NO DOUBT that these are breathtaking speakers. But YIKES!!!! £13,000/pr.
Right now, the speaker I have (Diamond 9.6) were about $1000/pr (typical), though I paid less than half that for them. For the money I paid, absolutely they sound good. But, that said, I have heard better, though that 'better' cost substantially more money as well.
But, the OP hinted that this speaker for $500 looks just like that speaker for $5000. How do I know which is better, and how do I know which is worth the money? Though, I'm paraphrasing. ANSWER: Well, you go have a listen and decide for yourself. Or you read tons of reviews, and listen to as many YouTube videos as you can find that aren't total trash, and make a best guess judgement before ordering them unheard.
If you are planning to build speakers, especially if you are new at it, best to build an existing design until you get the hang of things. As to which design, budget is always the first consideration. Next, is the size of your room. They type of music you listen to, and perhaps, the acoustic of the room the speaker will be in. Your level of woodworking skills and available tools certainly comes into play.
For me, what gives the best sound, is quality drivers, in a well tuned box, with bass response preferably at or just below 30hz at -6dB. I like big drivers, since I'm old school. To the modern world 8" bass drivers are big, but to me, that is small. 6.5" are tiny, and 5" are toy speaker, but I grew up with 12" bass drivers being the common standard.
I also like a presence in the midrange, though not so much that it leaps out at you, crisp treble with cymbals that sizzle, and smooth bass, not overly exaggerated. I do prefer speakers that have Midrange drivers. So, 3-way or 3.5-way.
And finally, keep in mind that what one person may think is the 'best' may not be technically the best. Ask some teenage stoner what's best and it is all about window rattling bass with little or no thought to clarity. Who can say that person is wrong. If they are happy, that's what counts.
But I suspect when that same teen bass-head grows up, he is going to be searching for clarity and detail over roof raising bass.
So, whether building or buying, everything is tempered by budget. Then size of the room implies workable size of the drivers. Of course, She Who Must Be Obeyed and her wishes come into play. Most floorstanding speaker need a bit of room around them. Your room size and speaker placement can compromise "good" speakers and make them sound bad.
There are just too many factors, some very individual and personal, to make a definitive statement that this combination is the one that always works.
But I will say, from my perspective, there tends to be two schools of thought. Small well designed 2-way bookshelf with minimally complicated crossovers, and 3.5-way Tower/Floorstanding speakers. Though the precise application matters, I personally prefer the 3.5-way Tower speakers. Though, back in the day when Dinosaurs roamed the earth, I certainly had a love of 12" 3-way speakers.
For what its worth.
Steve/bluewizard
in what way are they superb? integration? And have you heard the latest B&W bookshelf speakers?
seems we now have 2 threads going with almost same subject
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/225163-2way-vs-3way-same-sound-2.html#post3277723
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/225163-2way-vs-3way-same-sound-2.html#post3277723
I have the one and only absolutely correct answer: It depends
Anyway, the OP's analysis of current speakers production needs a bit more research.
The "best" for me are my last ones. They are not made from cheap Chinese drivers and do not have 4th order electrical crossovers. I can assure you, though I would put them up against most commercial similar speakers, they are not the best I have ever heard. I think they are better than any I could actually afford to buy. They are not the best I can do. I know I can improve almost every aspect of them. I know the driver manufactures will continue to improve the drivers faster than I can learn to get the best of any given set.
theaudiophile'
I did hear the current 805's recently. They seemed to have tamed the top end again where it was getting a bit rough for a while. Almost "decent". I could live with 802's, but they won't fit in my house and are way out of my budget. I always point to the old Vanderstein 2Ce as a place to start. "So, what are you going to do better?" Not an easy question to answer.
Anyway, the OP's analysis of current speakers production needs a bit more research.
The "best" for me are my last ones. They are not made from cheap Chinese drivers and do not have 4th order electrical crossovers. I can assure you, though I would put them up against most commercial similar speakers, they are not the best I have ever heard. I think they are better than any I could actually afford to buy. They are not the best I can do. I know I can improve almost every aspect of them. I know the driver manufactures will continue to improve the drivers faster than I can learn to get the best of any given set.
theaudiophile'
I did hear the current 805's recently. They seemed to have tamed the top end again where it was getting a bit rough for a while. Almost "decent". I could live with 802's, but they won't fit in my house and are way out of my budget. I always point to the old Vanderstein 2Ce as a place to start. "So, what are you going to do better?" Not an easy question to answer.
Monotonically increasing directivity.
Your brain perceives timbre as a weighted combination of spectra from what it believes to be a direct sound and its reflections. Your brain tolerates a roll-off towards higher frequencies, presumably because in nature objects (like foliage) have increasing acoustic size with frequency resulting in more diffusion and absorption at high frequencies.
It hears "speaker" instead of "real" when there's reduced energy in the first reflections from a midrange driver's narrowing dispersion followed by increased energy crossing over to a dome tweeter which is effectively radiating into a hemisphere.
Most speakers get this wrong, both commercial and DIY.
There's some latitude in compensating for the off-axis bloom with an on-axis dip (the BBC dip is where you'd have problems crossing to a dome tweeter) but the results are more imperfect and sensitive to rooms than just getting it right.
There are lots of ways to do that - narrow baffles with decreasing driver size with frequency, point source approximations that are acoustically small through several kilohertz, acoustically small dipoles that limit dispersion at lower frequencies through acoustic cancellation, wave guides limiting high frequency dispersion paired with large mid-bass drivers matching their dispersion at the cross-over point.
Increasing your driver budget from $200 to $2000 or even $40,000 on drivers will have much less effect than getting the polar response right.
Harman scientists have found that listener preferences don't depend on age, nationality, preferred musical genres, or experience as a listener and produced formulas which do a good job predicting listener preference based on on-axis response,flatness smooth (probably as in first derivative versus frequency - I loaned out Toole's book to a friend) off-axis curves, and bass extension.
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