Hi,
Different speakers do different things image wise. Some throw a very tall image, some make singers appear bigger than than other speakers, some give a very wide soundstage etc.
There can be different tastes but there must only be one correct image that speakers should portray according to stereographic imaging theory which was invented by the likes of Alan et al. What is it?
I have posted a poll which I invite you to vote in.
Different speakers do different things image wise. Some throw a very tall image, some make singers appear bigger than than other speakers, some give a very wide soundstage etc.
There can be different tastes but there must only be one correct image that speakers should portray according to stereographic imaging theory which was invented by the likes of Alan et al. What is it?
I have posted a poll which I invite you to vote in.
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Hi, No, as the recording practices vary, quite a lot, no one answer, rgds, sreten.
Thats because your speakers are distorting the signal. You should not hear 3D because there is no way to capture height.
How is it possible though? If you have two microphones you can only do left and right plus the depth which comes from the time differences.
Very good question! I scratched my head for a long time about that one, too. How could it be?
But think about it, reflections happen, the mics pick them up. Our ears and brains have years of experience understanding location from aural clues, including height.
Also, musicians move, if even slightly. That can help form a 3D space in your mind. Some of it is simple artifacts, but not all of it.
A system does have to be very good to do this trick, and a large space without early reflections can help. Once you've hear it, you'll never forget it - partly because it is so surprising.
But think about it, reflections happen, the mics pick them up. Our ears and brains have years of experience understanding location from aural clues, including height.
Also, musicians move, if even slightly. That can help form a 3D space in your mind. Some of it is simple artifacts, but not all of it.
A system does have to be very good to do this trick, and a large space without early reflections can help. Once you've hear it, you'll never forget it - partly because it is so surprising.
Hi,
I received a rather shirty personal mail insisting there is one answer,
and that they were not interested interested in "endless debate".
Yes well, very wrong, as well as recording variations there is also
the rather variable quantity of the replay environment and what
you want it to do, and how you go about doing that, for you.
rgds, sreten.
There are well known principles "for good imaging".
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I have listened to 6' tall line sources in a heavily treated room - almost no floor/ceiling comb filtering added by the speaker in the room, attention to early reflections but live-end dead-end for natural reverberation - there were some amazing positional illusions on the system owner's selection of discs
but they varied hugely from recording to recording - in one a piano "in my lap" and half the room wide - another with a reasonable illusion of a small jazz group in front of me except for the drum kit sound apparently coming up stairs from a virtual basement door on the right..
my take is that depth, height is encoded in things like relative amplitude, frequency response balance, differing room reflections between multiple sources (instrument players) that "light up" our built in neural circuit expectations from real world experience - and that modern mixing/production tries "paint on" much of that with EQ, panning, added reverb to each mic feed
but the success rate with these other dimensions is considerably less reliable than the stereo phantom image R/L panning and does vary hugely with different recordings
http://www.moultonlabs.com/more/principles_of_multitrack_mixing_the_phantom_image/
for a pro's perspective on phantom imaging
but they varied hugely from recording to recording - in one a piano "in my lap" and half the room wide - another with a reasonable illusion of a small jazz group in front of me except for the drum kit sound apparently coming up stairs from a virtual basement door on the right..
my take is that depth, height is encoded in things like relative amplitude, frequency response balance, differing room reflections between multiple sources (instrument players) that "light up" our built in neural circuit expectations from real world experience - and that modern mixing/production tries "paint on" much of that with EQ, panning, added reverb to each mic feed
but the success rate with these other dimensions is considerably less reliable than the stereo phantom image R/L panning and does vary hugely with different recordings
http://www.moultonlabs.com/more/principles_of_multitrack_mixing_the_phantom_image/
for a pro's perspective on phantom imaging
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Interesting discussion. from a(n amateur) musician's perspective, I put a great deal of effort into creating a 3D space in which the listener sits, with varying results I'll add (always learning 
.
When I've gotten it right, it brings quite the smile to my face/ears.
Many "recordings" will use more than two mics, and be further processed to place each element and the listener in whatever environment the mix engineer sees fit (this obviously depends on one's listening tastes as to whether you'll be hearing this type of work).
I will mention that positional information can be relayed through only one mic - a recording I made of a shaker gave the very odd sensation (given mono signal, no panning) that it was off centre. It turned out that my shaking had "crossed" the mic polar pattern instead of sat in it, and people instinctively know what something crossing from left to right sounds like in terms of timbre.
Very odd at the time, but perhaps a good technique to explore creatively in future.
Andy
. When I've gotten it right, it brings quite the smile to my face/ears.
Many "recordings" will use more than two mics, and be further processed to place each element and the listener in whatever environment the mix engineer sees fit (this obviously depends on one's listening tastes as to whether you'll be hearing this type of work).
I will mention that positional information can be relayed through only one mic - a recording I made of a shaker gave the very odd sensation (given mono signal, no panning) that it was off centre. It turned out that my shaking had "crossed" the mic polar pattern instead of sat in it, and people instinctively know what something crossing from left to right sounds like in terms of timbre.
Very odd at the time, but perhaps a good technique to explore creatively in future.
Andy
The mics capture the direct sound, but also bounces from the walls, floor and ceiling, no? More time differences there, can we distinguish the size and shape of the room and the relative heights of sources (and microphones) within it from all of those time-shifted reflections?
never happened to me in stereo, even with lots of reflexions and a watson setup.. How do you manage to get sounds generated outside the speaker spread and vertically? reflexions can broaden the image but not generate new sources in my experience. What you call 3D might just be a greater sense of envelopment?
It's the room/speaker interface that does "different things image wise". Listen to speakers outside then you know what stereo can do "image wise". What stereo should do is a different question.
HRTF-like distortions can place images outside the stereo triangle. I have a couple of tracks where this happens. Unfortunately not a reliable method because HRTFs vary considerably from person to person.
Reflections can drag images in their direction if they are loud enough.
Yep, but that's not a "new source" in my opinion.. only discrete channels can do that.
Depends on how loud the reflection/s is/are (under certain conditions several reflections are lumped together by our hearing). If the level is high enough, it overrides precedence of the direct sound. The sound is coming from the direction of the reflection.
You can generate discrete phantom sources outside of the stereo speaker base. It is discussed in http://www.hauptmikrofon.de/theile/ON_THE_LOCALISATION_english.pdf page48, section 4.2.5
Rudolf
Rudolf
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