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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 22nd November 2012, 11:26 AM   #21
6.283 is offline 6.283  Germany
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Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
How about a 2" upfiring (instead of the 4" I mentioned) with a forward facing dome in a waveguide crossed around 1800hz or even lower? I also have a pair of Dayton ND28 which are extremely compact when you remove the faceplate. Probably 32mm diameter. Could either of these arrangements work better?
A 2" will not give you enough output, especially not if you cross it around 200 Hz. A 4" is the way to go when you cross around 2KHz on the other end and the Vifa I am using is a real bargain.
The ND28 could work. Give it a try and post measurements.
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Old 22nd November 2012, 11:41 AM   #22
tinitus is offline tinitus  Europe
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Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
...... with a forward facing dome in a waveguide crossed around 1800hz or even lower?
with waveguide facing up(or down), and mounted with diffusor/phase plug, I suppose it would work

right now thinking of those 'weird' coaxes
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Old 22nd November 2012, 12:40 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by graaf View Post
but isn't this Pluto thing just boring?
why not trying sth really new? not thinking along any lines

I would follow tinitus' suggestions

for my part I say make it as short as possible, use coincident driver, bass or subbass in a separate enclosure, if crossed not too low You would not even need an enclosure for the main driver, simple baffle would suffice or even a bare driver - ask tinitus if do not believe me

do not angle anything forward but be prepared do equalize passively or actively for the treble loss (the most of treble energy would come through ceiling reflection)

You still can angle it forward with the use of spikes or else, if necessary

good luck!
best!
graaf
Pluto boring?

Click the image to open in full size.

Above: Pluto Clone right; "Spark" version left.

Spark has Peerless 2” full-range 830970 and Peerless 4” HDS 830870. With DSP for crossover and EQ is measures:

Click the image to open in full size.

From 2nd and 3rd harmonic plots it is clear that little woofer really does not want to go so low. For up close and personal it works great. At slightly less than arms length with head in between is like fantastic headphone. As I pull back, fantastic auditory scene. When tweeters are turned to face wall 8’-15’ away the reflected image is stunning.

This is excellent omnidirectional experiment.

Adding in woofers extends range and power handling.

DSP Pluto performance links:

Active v Passive #347

How to achieve coherence #43


How to achieve coherence #48


Tinitus' design has all classic problems of monkey coffins. It's omnidirectional characteristics are unknown.

Pluto type speaker is well defined, simple design that allows ready exploration of omnidirectional paradigm. Adding rear firing tweeter is possibility. I've run Pluto Clone with Spark back to back, with Spark woofer muted. Front wall reflections lock in stereo image.

Regards,

Andrew
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Old 22nd November 2012, 01:02 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by 6.283 View Post
A 2" will not give you enough output, especially not if you cross it around 200 Hz. A 4" is the way to go when you cross around 2KHz on the other end and the Vifa I am using is a real bargain.
The ND28 could work. Give it a try and post measurements.
i partly disagree. What output is required? Visaton FRS5X is good to 200hz in 0.7 litre sealed. 86dBWm should be ok for a listening level of around 90+dB. However, a 3inch would have more headroom.
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Old 22nd November 2012, 01:32 PM   #25
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I can go: neo dome, 2", 4", 2 x 6", subwoofer? It would be complex, but every driver would be in an omni pass band. Still think the tweeter is where things fall apart. The 4way plus sub is probably over kill.
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Old 22nd November 2012, 01:33 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by mondogenerator View Post
i partly disagree. What output is required? Visaton FRS5X is good to 200hz in 0.7 litre sealed. 86dBWm should be ok for a listening level of around 90+dB. However, a 3inch would have more headroom.
Distortion performance used down to 200Hz is guaranteed to be wretched at any level much above background music listening levels.

Regards,

Andrew
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Old 22nd November 2012, 01:39 PM   #27
tinitus is offline tinitus  Europe
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Originally Posted by Barleywater View Post
Tinitus' design has all classic problems of monkey coffins. It's omnidirectional characteristics are unknown.
funny that we suggest the exact opposite
Pluto is omni 'directive' up to 1khz or so
and I suggest pure omni from 100hz and up

and btw, your Pluto does look great(with DSP)
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Old 22nd November 2012, 01:51 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by tinitus View Post
funny that we suggest the exact opposite
Pluto is omni 'directive' up to 1khz or so
and I suggest pure omni from 100hz and up
Do please post measurement results on and off axis demonstrating this omnidirectional design's performance.

Pluto is completely omni up to 1kHz for woofer, just think about it alone pointing up, and it's diameter. If has no front, back, or sides in horizontal plane. Now think of 2" in minimal baffle. It is omni to about 2.5kHz, and shows normal directive behavior above that.

Regards

Andrew
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Old 22nd November 2012, 01:57 PM   #29
lolo is offline lolo  France
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Originally Posted by Barleywater View Post
At slightly less than arms length with head in between is like fantastic headphone. As I pull back, fantastic auditory scene. When tweeters are turned to face wall 8’-15’ away the reflected image is stunning.
I have a pair of Olasonic I use that way, about 50cm distance, no need for headphones. They just sound stunning but I will build a pair of Pluto soon, for fun.

Would the Visaton B200 be ok to experiment in a pipe firing up? With a dispersion cone of course.. I've got two seating in a box..

Last edited by lolo; 22nd November 2012 at 02:00 PM.
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Old 22nd November 2012, 02:04 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Barleywater View Post
Distortion performance used down to 200Hz is guaranteed to be wretched at any level much above background music listening levels.

Regards,

Andrew
Seeing as average speech SPL is ~60-70 dB, I wouldnt call 90dB background music.

I fully understand the point you make, but i own these little beasties, and theyre clean at desktop levels, and excursion is barely discernable. Distortion and excursion are hand in hand.

If you listen at 95dB day in day out then these arent for you, but at 'normal' (read not at ASBO levels) of <90dB, then i struggle to see an issue with THD... unless you sit 10m away from the speakers that is

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