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Old 7th December 2012, 01:10 PM   #441
lolo is offline lolo  France
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out of curiosity has anyone had to chance to listen to a good dipole in a very large room, high ceiling?
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Old 7th December 2012, 01:13 PM   #442
dewardh is offline dewardh  United States
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Originally Posted by cajunner View Post
sorry, I just had to fit this thought in here, mean no disrespect....
No need for apology . . . while I'd give the psychology a "maybe" I agree with the general perception . . . but I'll add this: That "up close" sound that some seem to be seeking is nothing like what you hear sitting in the orchestra on stage. That sound is simply not captured in any recording that I have ever heard. Getting the general sound and "feel" of a seat in the audience, though, is reasonably doable with recordings that exist and in rooms that we can exist in.
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Old 7th December 2012, 01:35 PM   #443
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No need for apology . . . while I'd give the psychology a "maybe" I agree with the general perception . . . but I'll add this: That "up close" sound that some seem to be seeking is nothing like what you hear sitting in the orchestra on stage. That sound is simply not captured in any recording that I have ever heard. Getting the general sound and "feel" of a seat in the audience, though, is reasonably doable with recordings that exist and in rooms that we can exist in.
thanks for your acknowledgement.

we haven't sliced the pickle too thin, yet imho....

my perception is rooted in a reference. That reference is tainted by studio recordings. I like to hear what the mixing engineers want me to hear, but I know that it is an illusion in comparison to unamplified instruments located in space, the engineer does the best he/she can with the tools available.

I understand where you are coming from, in a dynamics sense. Orchestral instruments can be incredibly dynamic, and proximity to their output, breeds a sense of awe... euphony, I tend to misuse the word but it's not ecstasy, so... anyway.

I can't and probably will never be suitably impressed with one type of system over another, because I cannot achieve the results I want with just one type.

Studio, rock recordings have to be played without the room coming so much into the field because I need the black between the instruments, the mixologists can really fudge their addition in the name of "art" much like the actual artists must deliberately indicate their own indelible mark, or representation. I am listening to a product, and the fun is looking into the product aurally to find cues that speak directly to me in the wash.

Live audience, acoustic music, I need the room. I want the room; I want to be a part of the crowd. I have to place myself in the grouped audience to have the recording "be all that it can be," and get a kick out of being able to do that, in a listening room far removed from the event.

perhaps the technology is there, in Markus' reverb creators and primary direct radiators.

but for now, I need to have (at least) 2 different reproduction systems available for my personal taste accommodation, and that's just good for the speaker builder business, lol...
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Old 7th December 2012, 02:04 PM   #444
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But unless you're in an anechoic chamber you still can't control the listening room . . . whatever you add is still layered on top of that. And it's . . . well . . . completely synthetic.
What's the difference to dipoles/omnis??

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I suppose that one day we will also have the completely synthetic orchestra and vocalists as well, and you will be able to "dial in" whatever performance you want (let's try Streisand singing Verdi backed by The Who at La Scala). Fortunately I'll be long gone (and glad of it) . . .
There's still a difference between acoustics and artistic performance.
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Old 7th December 2012, 02:35 PM   #445
dewardh is offline dewardh  United States
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There's still a difference between acoustics and artistic performance.
Sure, but if you can synthesize "ambience" you can synthesize anything . . . it's all just "sound" . . .

And if there's no difference to dipoles then why bother with the synthetic reverb and multiple speakers? I mean, I give you a Decca or Telefunken recording (without a picture to even hint where the mikes were placed) and where are you going to get the "extra channels" of ambient sound?
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Old 7th December 2012, 02:45 PM   #446
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Sure, but if you can synthesize "ambience" you can synthesize anything . . . it's all just "sound" . . .
Why would you be able to synthesize anything just because something can be synthesized? Can we create life just because we can grow artificial skin?
Furthermore, I've never mentioned synthesizing anything. Are you familiar with Gerzon's matrixing approach?

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And if there's no difference to dipoles then why bother with the synthetic reverb and multiple speakers?
Because New Linkwitz "LX521" speakers..
And again, "synthetic" wasn't mentioned in any of my posts.

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I mean, I give you a Decca or Telefunken recording (without a picture to even hint where the mikes were placed) and where are you going to get the "extra channels" of ambient sound?
Now that is exactly the question (which was already asked by Elias). There is currently no definitive answer.

Last edited by markus76; 7th December 2012 at 02:47 PM.
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Old 7th December 2012, 08:41 PM   #447
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the perception is that DSP, or time delay of any kind, is not natural reverberation/decay and therefore falls under a synthetic classification.

anything you can do that moves away from point source, is going to be scrutinized under the auspices of natural room response modes and any attempt to recreate the conditions where the recording took place through the use of applied mathematics or digital recombinant technological wizardry, is a move away from the purist designs we all secretly harbor when we are forced to push a tone slide or turn a knob that isn't volume...
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Old 7th December 2012, 09:22 PM   #448
fas42 is offline fas42  Australia
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Originally Posted by dewardh View Post
Sure, but if you can synthesize "ambience" you can synthesize anything . . . it's all just "sound" . . .

And if there's no difference to dipoles then why bother with the synthetic reverb and multiple speakers? I mean, I give you a Decca or Telefunken recording (without a picture to even hint where the mikes were placed) and where are you going to get the "extra channels" of ambient sound?
There was a unit capable of doing this that was close to being released, pretty expensive, but which was cancelled because apparently key parts became unavailable: the Lexicon MP-20 Processor, very powerful DSP to unravel elements of the sound, play with them and then steer to appropriate channels.

Frank
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Old 7th December 2012, 09:27 PM   #449
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The MP-20 is cancelled?
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Old 7th December 2012, 09:33 PM   #450
fas42 is offline fas42  Australia
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The MP-20 is cancelled?
Yes, the last I saw on it was at What's Best Forum (WBF Forum), amirm there has very close contact with Harman, and he spells out the story in at least one of the threads ...

Frank
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