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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 25th November 2012, 01:33 AM   #281
dewardh is offline dewardh  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john k... View Post
you can use any crossover than sums flat in phase that you can think of and compare it is onlinear and llinear phase modes.
Yes . . . and with the two midrange drivers as well matched as can be found the LX521 will be an excellent test bed for demonstrating (or not) any audible differences in the various filters.
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Old 25th November 2012, 10:54 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by Soundtrackmixer View Post
There is a danger of misleading using a photo like this when we don't know what the studio tech does before actually mixing something. In other words, this is a photo oportunity, not a setup for actually mxing something.
It could almost be a Photoshop opportunity. Note the lighting on the speakers.
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Old 25th November 2012, 12:04 PM   #283
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Last time I was at Abbey Road they certainly weren't set up like that.
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Old 25th November 2012, 12:07 PM   #284
tomtom is offline tomtom  Slovakia
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Hi guys.

Sorry for little OT...

Just in case you don't know. You have same limitless option to mess-up with XO and phase with Rephase. Its great tool and its free. But either with UE or any other tool the price you pay is preringing in filter responses which SHOULD cancel itself with other from other driver. But does this really happen? And it is valid for whole polar pattern? It think that "subtractive & delay" with either analog or IIR is better approach to "linear phase".

I'm interested in other and especially John's view about this.
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Old 25th November 2012, 06:09 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by tomtom View Post
Hi guys.

Sorry for little OT...

Just in case you don't know. You have same limitless option to mess-up with XO and phase with Rephase. Its great tool and its free. But either with UE or any other tool the price you pay is preringing in filter responses which SHOULD cancel itself with other from other driver. But does this really happen? And it is valid for whole polar pattern? It think that "subtractive & delay" with either analog or IIR is better approach to "linear phase".

I'm interested in other and especially John's view about this.
Subtractive delay stillhas a precursor, though not so much preringing. But you can not eliminat the low frequency GD with SD crossovers. That requires making the system linear phase and correcting for the GD associated with the low frequency cut off.

But let's not forget that SD filters only represent the acoustic target. It is unlikely that the filter required to make the driver acoustic output match the SD target can be generated with IIR. And lastly, let's not forget that IIR and FIR do not imply minimum phase or linear phase. FIR filters can be either.

Also, if you look at the response of a HP SD filter it can be decomposed into a minimum phase HP filter plus and all pass with some nonmnimum phase response. So the HP response is sort of a "rephase" of minimum phase HP response.
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Old 25th November 2012, 06:31 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by studiotech View Post
I believe he WAS refering to the practice of dropping the sound back onto a reel to reel to "tapify" the sound. We used to do it all the time in tape cal class to show the students what tape can do to alter the sound. I would not say it is common practice, but there are those who do it. Of course now that there are tape emulation plug-ins that are really pretty convincing, this practice will die out for all but the most nostalgic of folks.

Greg
This would considerably degrade the audio. If want an analog sound, why not just record it in analog, do all post processing in analog, and then digitize the result. That is a whole lot cleaner of an approach, and is a whole lot less work. The result can be quite stunning. I still do this on occasion.

I personally have never seen anyone record in digital, then lay it down to tape, and then go back to digital just because of your bolded comment. Emulators eleminate the need to do this.
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Old 26th November 2012, 05:09 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by Soundtrackmixer View Post
This would considerably degrade the audio. If want an analog sound, why not just record it in analog, do all post processing in analog, and then digitize the result. That is a whole lot cleaner of an approach, and is a whole lot less work. The result can be quite stunning. I still do this on occasion.

I personally have never seen anyone record in digital, then lay it down to tape, and then go back to digital just because of your bolded comment. Emulators eleminate the need to do this.
Well, coming from a music production background, rather than post, I've seen analogue used all kinds of ways. Prior to Bob Katz getting a Crane Song HED 192 many years ago(and now the Anamod), he used to take very digital or thin sounding mixes and drop them to his Studer/Ampex hybrid 1/2" machine and then back into Sonic Solutions. It did not degrade at all, but rather thickened up just a touch and added some character to rather flat sounding mixes. It was not often, because one has to weigh the pros of the tape with the cons of the additional D/A and A/D stages, but I did see it on numerous occasions.

Additionally, at Phat Planet, we have done plenty of projects where we track to the Studer, dump all tracks into Protools for editing and manipulation and then mix back to 1/2", OR track everything in Protools for budget and time crunch and THEN mix down to the 1/2" ATR102. There's plenty of ways to get a particular sound. Adding tape just about anywhere in the production stages can have benefits if that's the sound an engineer or producer is listening for.

Greg
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Old 26th November 2012, 05:52 PM   #288
dewardh is offline dewardh  United States
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Originally Posted by studiotech View Post
Adding tape just about anywhere in the production stages can have benefits
I'm not so sure about that, but back in the early days of digital it sure had its benefits . . . the "brick wall" high frequency filtering (caused mostly by gap erasure) tamed the peaky condenser microphones of the day and was all but essential to avoid the ugly splatter of aliasing at the A/D conversion. Not a problem with the higher sample rates and better filters of today, but it was a real problem back then, and the early DD recordings sounded uniformly terrible compared to those captured on tape before conversion.
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Old 26th November 2012, 06:09 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by dewardh View Post
I'm not so sure about that, but back in the early days of digital it sure had its benefits . . . the "brick wall" high frequency filtering (caused mostly by gap erasure) tamed the peaky condenser microphones of the day and was all but essential to avoid the ugly splatter of aliasing at the A/D conversion. Not a problem with the higher sample rates and better filters of today, but it was a real problem back then, and the early DD recordings sounded uniformly terrible compared to those captured on tape before conversion.
Not a fair quote. You skipped the last part....

You guys aren't getting what I'm saying. I used to be a high rez digital snob too, but there's a certain sound to a great analog machine like a Studer A-80/A-800 that you just do not get with high quality digital. It's not more accurate for sure, just different and sometimes that difference sounds nicer than the real thing. It's an effect. Not right or better, just different. If you could come hear some master tapes with me, you'd hear what I mean. When we do converter shoot-outs we like to compare the live board feed of a musician in real time to the conversion, but we also track to tape to see how that process sounds. Tape a certain character. That's what people are after.

Greg

Last edited by studiotech; 26th November 2012 at 06:13 PM.
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Old 26th November 2012, 06:17 PM   #290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studiotech View Post
Well, coming from a music production background, rather than post, I've seen analogue used all kinds of ways. Prior to Bob Katz getting a Crane Song HED 192 many years ago(and now the Anamod), he used to take very digital or thin sounding mixes and drop them to his Studer/Ampex hybrid 1/2" machine and then back into Sonic Solutions. It did not degrade at all, but rather thickened up just a touch and added some character to rather flat sounding mixes. It was not often, because one has to weigh the pros of the tape with the cons of the additional D/A and A/D stages, but I did see it on numerous occasions.

Additionally, at Phat Planet, we have done plenty of projects where we track to the Studer, dump all tracks into Protools for editing and manipulation and then mix back to 1/2", OR track everything in Protools for budget and time crunch and THEN mix down to the 1/2" ATR102. There's plenty of ways to get a particular sound. Adding tape just about anywhere in the production stages can have benefits if that's the sound an engineer or producer is listening for.

Greg
Well, you learn something every day - and after all of these years I am still learning.

I come from both the production and post side of things. Maybe because I work mostly with film scores, classical, jazz, and Gospel recording and mixing(which never needed that kind of manipulation), I never needed to do this kind of process to get the desired effect I wanted. I carefully planned out the entire process, and any effects that I wanted to create I either recorded them, or added it in post.
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