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Old 19th November 2012, 02:53 PM   #191
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Nice try! No theory is ever proven...just as Newton was heavily modified by Einstein under relativistic conditions, Einstein may be modified by future findings. The fact that acoustics is ultimately a mental percept makes it no less beneficially a subject of scientific study than optics, which also ultimately lands as a percept in the mind. The trick is to tease out those aspects of study that are amenable to the scientific method. By your rationale we should sweep aside all aspects of science that deal with the mind.
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Old 19th November 2012, 03:03 PM   #192
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Theories aren't proven?
you are getting far to existential here.
We can't believe what we see?
ok, sure.........

And I am not suggesting we sweep aside all aspects of science, all I am saying is when trying to understand psychoacoustics, it is best to trust our experience rather than someone elses.
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Old 19th November 2012, 03:15 PM   #193
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I'd also like to add that everybody has an agenda....
It doesn't have to be a financial one, It could be just the satisfaction of being right.
after all that's the ultimate payoff for scientists, and it should be after a long life of research and mental exercises.
I just think that we should have our own experiences through experimentation and yes...actually building stuff

That's how you really learn, because if you are going to put so much effort in your belief, the lesson...whether it be successful or not will really hit home.
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Old 19th November 2012, 04:42 PM   #194
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
We're pretty far off-topic so just one remark.
Yes.. no problem with the line of discussion, but it really needs to be moved to a new or more appropriate thread.

Just where are the mods.?
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Old 19th November 2012, 09:44 PM   #195
dewardh is offline dewardh  United States
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Got to visit the LX521 on their “native turf” for a couple hours Sunday (my first visit to their “place of birth"), and to listen on them to some very familiar (and somewhat flawed) recordings that I heard up close and personal both in rehearsal and in performance. Since I was primarily interested in further evaluating the new midrange I took a soprano aria (Christina Major singing Ruhe Sanft, Midsummer Mozart Festival) and the Serenade #10 for winds (Gran Partita, also Midsummer Mozart). SL then played a couple “studio mixed” recordings that highlighted issues of “phantom image” formation (more about that later).

First, about the lower midrange bump (I previously described it as “forward sounding”) that I noted at BurningAmp. It is entirely absent in SL’s listening room, and as I speculated before it is now clearly an artifact of the space at Ft. Mason. No speaker can be completely immune to the room. In SL’s room (which is itself relatively “live” and reflective) overall balance and “timbre” are as good as it gets. There was simply nothing wrong with the reproduction of the various winds in the Partita.

Second, regarding issues of the midrange crossover and driver integration . . . I had heard no problem with that at BurningAmp, but it has been suggested that there might be some, and that, more than anything else, is what I went to listen for. Put it to rest, there is no “problem”. The lower and upper mids sound like one driver, and there is not the slightest hint otherwise. And, to answer your next question, it’s one very good driver indeed . . . every bit the match for ORION’s W22 in the lower midrange and Millennium in the upper, but without the oft discussed issues those two have around crossover. The higher order crossover that is simply a necessity with the drivers in ORION is not needed with the LX521 drivers . . . whether the increased phase shift of a higher order crossover can be heard or influences “image formation” is here moot, since it is not necessary. This makes putting the passive (first order) crossover between the two midrange drivers the obvious, and correct, choice with these drivers.

But back to “imaging” and the “auditory scene” . . . that’s more a “mixed bag”, not because of any LX521 problem but because they ruthlessly expose problems in the recording. When it’s there it’s there, when it’s not it’s not. These are rightly called “monitors”, and they will embarrass many a recording engineer who might listen to his previous work product on them (even though it might not be entirely his fault . . . there are unavoidable “issues” with two-channel stereo). The female vocalist in one of the clearly mixed-and-pan-potted recordings SL played was “present” as a near perfect phantom when I listened centered on axis, but fled into the speakers when I move more than a few degrees to either side. Christi (singing the Ruhe) was less precisely located in her actual left-of-center position, but she stayed there as I moved around the room (that recording was straight through from a ORTF pair). We’ve still got a lot to learn about creating stable “auditory scenes”, and I expect the LX521 (or something like it) will play a significant role in learning and demonstrating what it is.

I much preferred listening from the back seat (you can find pictures of SL’s listening room at the linkwitzlab site). I don’t know exactly what that means, or how it will translate to my room (where I generally prefer a somewhat “further back” position with ORION as well). For the “average listener” they (the LX521) may be almost too ruthless in the way they “expose” a recording. For someone in the trade, on the other hand, they should be regarded as indispensable . . . it just doesn’t “do” to have a client demonstrate to you on their own speakers flaws in your work that you cannot hear on your own “studio monitors”.
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Old 19th November 2012, 09:51 PM   #196
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You're very lucky !!

Thanks for sharing.
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Old 20th November 2012, 01:35 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by dewardh View Post
Got to visit the LX521 on their “native turf” for a couple hours Sunday (my first visit to their “place of birth"), and to listen on them to some very familiar (and somewhat flawed) recordings that I heard up close and personal both in rehearsal and in performance. Since I was primarily interested in further evaluating the new midrange I took a soprano aria (Christina Major singing Ruhe Sanft, Midsummer Mozart Festival) and the Serenade #10 for winds (Gran Partita, also Midsummer Mozart). SL then played a couple “studio mixed” recordings that highlighted issues of “phantom image” formation (more about that later).

First, about the lower midrange bump (I previously described it as “forward sounding”) that I noted at BurningAmp. It is entirely absent in SL’s listening room, and as I speculated before it is now clearly an artifact of the space at Ft. Mason. No speaker can be completely immune to the room. In SL’s room (which is itself relatively “live” and reflective) overall balance and “timbre” are as good as it gets. There was simply nothing wrong with the reproduction of the various winds in the Partita.

Second, regarding issues of the midrange crossover and driver integration . . . I had heard no problem with that at BurningAmp, but it has been suggested that there might be some, and that, more than anything else, is what I went to listen for. Put it to rest, there is no “problem”. The lower and upper mids sound like one driver, and there is not the slightest hint otherwise. And, to answer your next question, it’s one very good driver indeed . . . every bit the match for ORION’s W22 in the lower midrange and Millennium in the upper, but without the oft discussed issues those two have around crossover. The higher order crossover that is simply a necessity with the drivers in ORION is not needed with the LX521 drivers . . . whether the increased phase shift of a higher order crossover can be heard or influences “image formation” is here moot, since it is not necessary. This makes putting the passive (first order) crossover between the two midrange drivers the obvious, and correct, choice with these drivers.

But back to “imaging” and the “auditory scene” . . . that’s more a “mixed bag”, not because of any LX521 problem but because they ruthlessly expose problems in the recording. When it’s there it’s there, when it’s not it’s not. These are rightly called “monitors”, and they will embarrass many a recording engineer who might listen to his previous work product on them (even though it might not be entirely his fault . . . there are unavoidable “issues” with two-channel stereo). The female vocalist in one of the clearly mixed-and-pan-potted recordings SL played was “present” as a near perfect phantom when I listened centered on axis, but fled into the speakers when I move more than a few degrees to either side. Christi (singing the Ruhe) was less precisely located in her actual left-of-center position, but she stayed there as I moved around the room (that recording was straight through from a ORTF pair). We’ve still got a lot to learn about creating stable “auditory scenes”, and I expect the LX521 (or something like it) will play a significant role in learning and demonstrating what it is.

I much preferred listening from the back seat (you can find pictures of SL’s listening room at the linkwitzlab site). I don’t know exactly what that means, or how it will translate to my room (where I generally prefer a somewhat “further back” position with ORION as well). For the “average listener” they (the LX521) may be almost too ruthless in the way they “expose” a recording. For someone in the trade, on the other hand, they should be regarded as indispensable . . . it just doesn’t “do” to have a client demonstrate to you on their own speakers flaws in your work that you cannot hear on your own “studio monitors”.
I spent a good part of the day listening to the Note II with 1st, 2nd and 4th order crossovers between the mids. All seemed to perform equally with well the 1st order better than I recalled but with perhaps the 2nd order sounding the best. However, the excessive excursion of the 1st order was obvious from a finger touch. I'll be looking at the polar plots tomorrow or after Thanks Giving. On the techinical side, the 2nd order yields the best looking system impulse and perhaps the best CSD.
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Old 20th November 2012, 03:11 AM   #198
dewardh is offline dewardh  United States
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However, the excessive excursion of the 1st order was obvious from a finger touch.
I don't know what you are doing that is different from what SL is doing, but "excessive excursion" is simply not an issue with the LX521. The cones on the drivers in LX521 are well behaved far enough out from crossover that the benefit of higher out-of-band suppression (necessary, for example, with the W22) just isn't there. With many drivers I'd expect higher order to sound better for that reason (stop-band suppression) alone. Imaging is possibly helped by the lower phase shift of the lower order filter . . . at very least it's one less confounding variable to worry about. What we perceive, even how we perceive, in the critical midband is still an open area of study. The motors and suspension of both drivers are obviously quite good, and seem well matched and balanced for the application. There may be some room for improvement, but I'd expect it to be modest.

Initial shipment of the custom "SL" drivers is promised RSN, although until there is sufficient supply they may be reserved for licensed builders. Once they are available you might want to get a set . . . the baffle dimensions can be easily figured from a photograph (especially if you think like an engineer ) . . . and then repeat your crossover experiment with them.
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Old 20th November 2012, 04:37 AM   #199
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What happens when reflections are delayed by 6ms? Delay them by 6ms and everything's fine? What about number, angle, spectral content, delay? Doesn't matter? By the way, what about floor and ceiling?

By the way you skipped over the lateral reflection part of my last post There is psychoacoustic research that suggests that lateral reflections enhance spaciousness (Toole). If spaciousness is desirable, then why actively reduce them (dipole)?
There are psycho-acoustic effects that are such that less than 6mS doesn't sound good. Why is complicated. Floor and ceiling bounce is why I used a vertical line array of 4 five in drivers on each side in my open baffle speakers to handle 100HZ to 1.4kHZ. Although floor and ceiling bounce will make a mess of the frequency response at the listening position in most typical listening rooms, it's effectively a separate mechanism from the 6mS delay from the rear radiation, and has significantly different psycho-acoustic effects.

On the issue of lateral emissions enhancing the sense of spaciousness, that is true, but side wall reflections will blur any real imaging information that may be embedded in a high quality recording.
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Old 20th November 2012, 05:04 AM   #200
wayne is offline wayne  United States
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The motors and suspensions for the LX521 are custom done for that application. I don't think excursion is an issue at all. I have a pair of the 4" drivers and just listened to them for a few hours full range in a small box and then switched back to my standard reference speakers. I quickly realized that they are something quite special. I see a pair of LX521 in my future and my wife will pick the colors like in my Orions for the WAF.
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