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Old 14th November 2012, 08:43 PM   #91
boris81 is offline boris81  United States
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I for one really like the looks of the new LX521 baffle, more so than the Orion's.

I subscribe to the Form Follows Function paradigm and I was impressed with the new look because it's directivity benefits are obvious at first glance. At the same time the curves inspire an aggressive "Heavy Metal" attitude which I enjoy very much. Outstanding!

If I was to build it however, I would go without the subwoofer cavity and extend down the slim baffle aesthetic. The subwoofers would be truly portable and not attachable to the main baffle. (I understand that they are detached already)
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Old 14th November 2012, 11:59 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
Well, that's probably how stereo sounds. Spaciousness is created by reflections from directions other than where stereo speakers are typically located. Now we can either add reflections by utilizing the room or by adding speakers (and channels). I believe the latter approach is superior.
Markus, I have to agree with you here. Most folks have never heard a well designed baffle mounted speakers. It is a different sound(most certainly louder) than what you get from speakers set within the space. Rear reflections are supressed, and you hear more from the recording than you would with a speaker with lot's of rear flying reflections.
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Old 15th November 2012, 12:08 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by dewardh View Post
Arguably true, if your speakers at home already have the necessary correction/equalization built in . . .

Which still doesn't address the inherent problems of microphone placement and subsequent mixing.
One could make the argument that there are more problems on the reproduction side, than on the recording mixing side.
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Old 15th November 2012, 12:26 AM   #94
dewardh is offline dewardh  United States
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Originally Posted by Soundtrackmixer View Post
One could make the argument that there are more problems on the reproduction side, than on the recording mixing side.
One could . . . but having seen both I wouldn't. There are certainly enough problems on both ends of the chain, but if it's captured wrong it's wrong forever . . .
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Old 15th November 2012, 05:11 AM   #95
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I am surprised that no one has mentioned the fact that recording microphones have no pinae like human ears. This is what the "BBC dip" is supposed to be all about. Without the HF directionality of pinae, high frequencies from the diffuse field are over represented in the microphone output. This is a legacy issue going back to the first recordings ever made that tried to capture some "Hall" sound.

Of course the BBC dip is a correction to the direct sound to compensate for a problem in the reverberant sound. Sound familiar?.

Keith
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Old 15th November 2012, 08:36 AM   #96
lolo is offline lolo  France
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Originally Posted by soundaatma View Post
How would you compare dipoles to bipoles as regards imaging vs ambience ?

From my own experiments comparing monopole-dipole-bipole, I have observed that dipole sounds more pinpoint than a bipole and less than monopole. However, very strangely, dipole sounds more ambient than both bipole and monopole and perhaps more "natural' if I may say.

The only way I could explain to myself about the more naturalness of the dipole compared to the bipole, is that the sideward cancellation of the dipole prevents early reflections from sidewalls but still allows the late rear wall reflections to add to the ambience effect. OTOH, the bipole too has the rear wall reflections, but the sidewall reflections smears the direct sound also, thus reducing spatial localisation.

Despite the good qualities of the dipole mentioned above, I find that it still cannot rival an omnipolar radiation from a pipe mounted 2" FR like in the Pluto. A spherical wavefront can play a unique trick on the human brain..it just can't localise the source, just the direction of sound source remains known !! almost surreal
maybe you want to read point Z:

Spatial distortion

You are talking about two different things. Accuracy is a D/R ratio problem. Put a dipole in a very dead room, you will see what I mean. They can be very accurate giving you pin point imaging to the highest level. Now, with reverberation into play you obviously trade that quality off, dipole or not.
I think pin point imaging is surrealistic, it never happens in real life and a disease pop recordings and HT has induced into the whole music business. I am amazed to see how many audiophiles still judge speakers by this ability to pin point.
I much prefer a clear "cloud" of music if you see what I mean, that's the presentation I hear in the hall and the one I wish at home too.

But, more generally you might not like the reverb added by dipoles. Yes that's what they do, they add reverb. SL had a interesting recording the mic in his listening chair, talking from the Orion then played on the speaker. You could clearly spot extra reverb between the two tracks.

Any decent movie theatre has in wall speakers. I would not want that sound for music at home, sorry. One just need to listen to SL's own recordings sample CD to understand it's another paradigm, not just a variation of a concept.

As for the shelving, the Pluto did not seem to need one. That's disturbing.
Still, most headphones have a downward slope and every hall has extra reverb in the lows, that's a fact. You may not need to tame the highs in a dead room or outside, but we live in reverberant spaces and we have ears, not microphones!

Keith, you made a very interesting remark.

One has also to understand what goes on in a hall. The first task for the conductor is to balance the orchestra and set the tempo depending on the hall reverb, then only comes "the interpretation". It means there is no simple and only solution to how a material should be played, it totally depends on the acoustics of the space, that's why Celibidache never wanted to record anything as he had no control over the reproduction chain, hence a destruction of the original. Might sound extrem but it makes one understand what can be done and what cannot work.
What response does the system need to have in a bathroom, in a large living room, in a closet, etc etc.. I feel it really goes beyond the usual simple solutions.

At least now everybody agrees on some fundamentals, like CD.. But it's not enough. Maybe we can dream one day there will be a way to record that gives us a good illusion every time, not just ocasionally
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Old 15th November 2012, 08:49 AM   #97
lolo is offline lolo  France
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundtrackmixer View Post
Markus, I have to agree with you here. Most folks have never heard a well designed baffle mounted speakers. It is a different sound(most certainly louder) than what you get from speakers set within the space. Rear reflections are supressed, and you hear more from the recording than you would with a speaker with lot's of rear flying reflections.
maybe there is more than "just" the recording and that "more" is not "evil"?
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Old 15th November 2012, 09:17 AM   #98
lolo is offline lolo  France
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As a sidenote... Recording engineers. How many of them listen to the live event only through headphones? How many really attend concerts and get out of their dead walls? Why should they be right, and us wrong?
Recently I went to a nice Michelin restaurant with my wife. Next to us sat a food critic. He frantickly made notes on every bite he had. We enjoyed our dinner very much and had a great time. Him? I don't know..
There is a chapter on Toole's book about reflexions. Engineers hate them, but listeners found them enhancing the experience. Do we work with sound or do we enjoy ourselves? If the goal is to reproduce what they had in mind mixing, all we need to do is get a pair of Genelec and a LEDE room. Is that the way to pure audio Nirvana?

Last edited by lolo; 15th November 2012 at 09:21 AM.
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Old 15th November 2012, 09:36 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by lolo View Post
If the goal is to reproduce what they had in mind mixing, all we need to do is get a pair of Genelec and a LEDE room. Is that the way to pure audio Nirvana?
Of course not. You need NS10

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Old 15th November 2012, 09:57 AM   #100
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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In addition you'll need big table in front of you below your nose to generate heavy midrange and treble comb filtering. And a swivel chair with wheels so your head is in constant movement and phantom image jumping all over the place.
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