Hi,
This is my first post here even though I've been reading for a long time. I just wanted to get anyone's thoughts on the NOMEX 164 2.5 way by Troels Graveson. I am ready to buy all the pieces to build it, but now that I have really priced everything including all components with Jentzen air coils and standard-z caps, veneer, damping and odds and ends, the price has gotten pretty expensive. I'm guessing about $900 when I'm all said and done. So my question is, is it worth it?
I'm currently using kef iq5's with a Peachtree Nova and I want a noticeable upgrade in clarity, sound stage, ambiance and richness.
Am I barking up the wrong tree with these at this price? The price is OK, but not without noticeable improvements.
Thank you all in advance
Evan
This is my first post here even though I've been reading for a long time. I just wanted to get anyone's thoughts on the NOMEX 164 2.5 way by Troels Graveson. I am ready to buy all the pieces to build it, but now that I have really priced everything including all components with Jentzen air coils and standard-z caps, veneer, damping and odds and ends, the price has gotten pretty expensive. I'm guessing about $900 when I'm all said and done. So my question is, is it worth it?
I'm currently using kef iq5's with a Peachtree Nova and I want a noticeable upgrade in clarity, sound stage, ambiance and richness.
Am I barking up the wrong tree with these at this price? The price is OK, but not without noticeable improvements.
Thank you all in advance
Evan
Hmm,
Its a solid enough design, by a solid designer, but it wouldn't be my first choice. Have a look at one of zaph's designs or some of the offerings on htforums. I somehow feel troels heart isn't in this one. Could just be cause he loves the high efficiency designs ( and rightly so in my humble opinion!)
Its a solid enough design, by a solid designer, but it wouldn't be my first choice. Have a look at one of zaph's designs or some of the offerings on htforums. I somehow feel troels heart isn't in this one. Could just be cause he loves the high efficiency designs ( and rightly so in my humble opinion!)
Thanks
I have looked at Zaph's designs and many, many others! I did wonder if his heart was in these also because he sometimes seems to have put a lot more effort into some others, but I have seen him recommend them for a reasonably priced, detailed speaker. I guess I picked them because I was interested in the 2.5's over a 2 or 3 way or mtm. Some of that is looks + sensitivity over the 2's.
Anyway's, I emailed him and he recommended them for my needs, but I just wanted to get some outside opinions. Plus his answers are very short and tuff to understand in the context of my original emails.
I guess I was wondering what I should shoot for to exceed the kef's in the areas I mentioned. They are not bad, but they are not very rich, sometimes a little grainy, sound stage just OK and sometimes shouty.
What level (price?) of diy speaker to look at to improve upon these.
Cheers,
Evan
I have looked at Zaph's designs and many, many others! I did wonder if his heart was in these also because he sometimes seems to have put a lot more effort into some others, but I have seen him recommend them for a reasonably priced, detailed speaker. I guess I picked them because I was interested in the 2.5's over a 2 or 3 way or mtm. Some of that is looks + sensitivity over the 2's.
Anyway's, I emailed him and he recommended them for my needs, but I just wanted to get some outside opinions. Plus his answers are very short and tuff to understand in the context of my original emails.
I guess I was wondering what I should shoot for to exceed the kef's in the areas I mentioned. They are not bad, but they are not very rich, sometimes a little grainy, sound stage just OK and sometimes shouty.
What level (price?) of diy speaker to look at to improve upon these.
Cheers,
Evan
For those not familiar with the project, it can be found here -
PEERLESS-NOMEX-164
I don't think that his heart isn't in it -- I think he is a great engineer and this is a very good design within the paramaters he had. 2.5 way speakers are not for everybody due to their low impedance. However the Nova will drive them with gusto so that shouldn't be a concern for you.
The real question is this - are you wanting to build these for an improvement to your system, or to learn something along the way? (Or both??) If you are interested in the adventure, then it (or anything, actually) will be a fine project!
Also remember the 4 to 1 ratio of the DIY project. The finished project would probably cost 4x your parts if you were to purchase them at retail. You will be building a $4000 pair of speakers, designed by a very experienced engineer, using quality drivers and parts... They will sound great!!
PEERLESS-NOMEX-164
I don't think that his heart isn't in it -- I think he is a great engineer and this is a very good design within the paramaters he had. 2.5 way speakers are not for everybody due to their low impedance. However the Nova will drive them with gusto so that shouldn't be a concern for you.
The real question is this - are you wanting to build these for an improvement to your system, or to learn something along the way? (Or both??) If you are interested in the adventure, then it (or anything, actually) will be a fine project!
Also remember the 4 to 1 ratio of the DIY project. The finished project would probably cost 4x your parts if you were to purchase them at retail. You will be building a $4000 pair of speakers, designed by a very experienced engineer, using quality drivers and parts... They will sound great!!
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cotdt-
By the way he tunes his crossovers, I assume you mean a bit laid back? My room is 22' X 14' X 9' with carpet and a lot of glass on the same wall as the speakers and a large window to the right and above the right hand speaker. I do sometimes put acoustical panels over the windows directly behind the speakers.
6L6-
I am wanting to build them for an improvement and for the experience. I could go buy a different pair of speakers and be done with it, but I will enjoy them more knowing that I built them. As for the improvement, I just don't want to spend a grand and all the time and not be happy. It's nice to hear that you think they will be nice either way.
I assume, based on the measurements he provides they should be at least decent? I know what the graphs mean and how to read them, just not how that correlates into how they will sound.
Evan
By the way he tunes his crossovers, I assume you mean a bit laid back? My room is 22' X 14' X 9' with carpet and a lot of glass on the same wall as the speakers and a large window to the right and above the right hand speaker. I do sometimes put acoustical panels over the windows directly behind the speakers.
6L6-
I am wanting to build them for an improvement and for the experience. I could go buy a different pair of speakers and be done with it, but I will enjoy them more knowing that I built them. As for the improvement, I just don't want to spend a grand and all the time and not be happy. It's nice to hear that you think they will be nice either way.
I assume, based on the measurements he provides they should be at least decent? I know what the graphs mean and how to read them, just not how that correlates into how they will sound.
Evan
Yeah your room seems large and dampened enough. Just keep the speakers away from the walls. His tuning does seem a little laid back based on the graphs, but most people prefer such sound. His crossover point is quite high. I've only tried these Nomex units crossed at 2kHz to the HDS tweeter (which has a rising response) while he uses 3.2kHz with a more laid-back tweeter. But you can tweak the crossover to get the balance that you like, by leaving out R1061 for a flatter frequency response.
I do think the crossover caps make a difference. I would use metal-core inductors to save space and cost. You don't need 10W resistors, more like 2W.
I do think the crossover caps make a difference. I would use metal-core inductors to save space and cost. You don't need 10W resistors, more like 2W.
Huh, yeah I knew he was affiliated with Jentzen.
Thanks a lot for the responses guys I really appreciate it.
So, let me summarize:
Most seem to think that this is a worthy design to pursue.
I could save some in the crossover with iron core inductors and lesser resistors without noticable degradation.
Somewhat cheaper polyprops are OK.
Is the VDC an important figure to keep in mind with caps? It seem the cheaper the cap the lower the number.
Anyone have experience with the Axon True caps that were mentioned earlier.
Evan
Thanks a lot for the responses guys I really appreciate it.
So, let me summarize:
Most seem to think that this is a worthy design to pursue.
I could save some in the crossover with iron core inductors and lesser resistors without noticable degradation.
Somewhat cheaper polyprops are OK.
Is the VDC an important figure to keep in mind with caps? It seem the cheaper the cap the lower the number.
Anyone have experience with the Axon True caps that were mentioned earlier.
Evan
The voltage ratings are overkill. You can use 63V film caps from Digikey or Mouser. Most brands have film caps of at least 250V just because they don't have the technology to make the film layers thin enough. In fact, if you make your own capacitors with paper, oil, and aluminum foil, it will have a ~1000V rating.
For the tweeter capacitor, get something a bit better than Bennic/Dayton/Solen Fast Cap. Get something mid-tier. Many say it makes no difference but I really think it does.
For the tweeter capacitor, get something a bit better than Bennic/Dayton/Solen Fast Cap. Get something mid-tier. Many say it makes no difference but I really think it does.
Satx, your caps won't ever see a voltage above about 30V so 100V is more than adequate.
I'd keep air-core inductors if possible (Solen are fine), but cut back on the capacitor expense, except for maybe the tweeter cap.
You should try to keep your component expense in line with the drivers you are using, say <50% of their value if possible. The beauty of this design should is the cost/performance ratio.
Checkout Madisound Specials page for discount components.
I'd keep air-core inductors if possible (Solen are fine), but cut back on the capacitor expense, except for maybe the tweeter cap.
You should try to keep your component expense in line with the drivers you are using, say <50% of their value if possible. The beauty of this design should is the cost/performance ratio.
Checkout Madisound Specials page for discount components.
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my 2 cents:
The Axon linked by dumptruck are used in Theil Audio loudspeakers FWIW...
Clarity SA are at a good quality/price point for the tweeter cap. You can do better for more money. You do begin to get into the qualities of the other gear in your audio chain playing a factor in this...and the tastes of the listener...
The Axon linked by dumptruck are used in Theil Audio loudspeakers FWIW...
Clarity SA are at a good quality/price point for the tweeter cap. You can do better for more money. You do begin to get into the qualities of the other gear in your audio chain playing a factor in this...and the tastes of the listener...
and yes, as others have said, i can confirm that Troels voices speakers on the laid back side for treble- I built the TJL3W's in 2008, and it was indeed a bit laid back for my liking. However- for reference- I like Focal and ATC speakers, so I quite like an exciting sound. Thats not to say he couldn't give you a slight revision for stronger treble if you emailed him- hes a very helpful chap.
Thanks, I added Clarity SA for the tweeter; didn't add much. I chose a Crosscap for the large lower woofer cap, Standard-z for the mids; do you guys think this is fine or will it create any synergy problems? Also, used P-core for large woofer coil. Would of used the AXONs but it was only a couple bucks difference and I already had everything in my cart at Parts Express. Everything's still in my cart, but I'll buy today unless people say different.
Yeah, one of the reasons I liked Troel's stuff is because it seemed voiced a little laid back. That was one of the main things I came to dislike about the Kef's is that they're a little shouty and harsh and thin at times; might be distortion and grain over voicing though? The Nova helped a good deal over my Pioneer Elite to richin them. I do usually keep the tube out of the circuit though because it takes some of the shimmer out of the treble so maybe I like a flat response, just smoother or cleaner? Anyways, in Troel's design if you leave out the parallel 18 ohm, you get a pretty flat response.
One question I had, can that 18 resistor be say lowered to get an in between tweeter level?
Yeah, one of the reasons I liked Troel's stuff is because it seemed voiced a little laid back. That was one of the main things I came to dislike about the Kef's is that they're a little shouty and harsh and thin at times; might be distortion and grain over voicing though? The Nova helped a good deal over my Pioneer Elite to richin them. I do usually keep the tube out of the circuit though because it takes some of the shimmer out of the treble so maybe I like a flat response, just smoother or cleaner? Anyways, in Troel's design if you leave out the parallel 18 ohm, you get a pretty flat response.
One question I had, can that 18 resistor be say lowered to get an in between tweeter level?
Really not keen on any kef speakers ive heard myself, but its very difficult to gauge the value of someones opinions unless you at least know they have similar taste, and its good to remind yourself of this every once in a while.
Kef's 'IQ' range all sound fairly high distortion to me, particularly dead, be that the 9 or any other(don't know what you use- if its this then no offense if intended!) but I cant say Ive measured it. The kind of speaker that would be my last choice for large scale classical as it sounds like the mid-driver is mounted in a cardboard box.
If you wanted to get a bit of a gauge of my taste and therefore value of my opinion to you- go and listen to any ATC or Focal speaker- if you don't think its detailed and clear, and bright, but not too bright- then you may agree with me on the Troels voicing- otherwise, just build it!
I think my choice would be one of these-
Zaph|Audio - ZA5 Speaker Designs with ZA14W08 woofer and Vifa DQ25SC16-04 tweeter
if I had my chance over again with building a narrow cabinet speaker, I'd be all over one of these like a rash, especially given the price!
Thats one of the best performing mid drivers of that size for any money, every bit as good (if not better!) as the seas w15 in the series of drivers I used in the TJL3W that cost me both arms and legs and it costs practically nothing!
Kef's 'IQ' range all sound fairly high distortion to me, particularly dead, be that the 9 or any other(don't know what you use- if its this then no offense if intended!) but I cant say Ive measured it. The kind of speaker that would be my last choice for large scale classical as it sounds like the mid-driver is mounted in a cardboard box.
If you wanted to get a bit of a gauge of my taste and therefore value of my opinion to you- go and listen to any ATC or Focal speaker- if you don't think its detailed and clear, and bright, but not too bright- then you may agree with me on the Troels voicing- otherwise, just build it!
I think my choice would be one of these-
Zaph|Audio - ZA5 Speaker Designs with ZA14W08 woofer and Vifa DQ25SC16-04 tweeter
if I had my chance over again with building a narrow cabinet speaker, I'd be all over one of these like a rash, especially given the price!
Thats one of the best performing mid drivers of that size for any money, every bit as good (if not better!) as the seas w15 in the series of drivers I used in the TJL3W that cost me both arms and legs and it costs practically nothing!
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