Hello all,
As a fairly newb here, I am amazed at the level of participation and knowledge sharing at ALL levels form people doing builds to those doing theoretical work. Thank you all for keeping the DIY audio efforts going.
Now onto the thread. I am planning on building a horn based system and would like to get some inputs before I start making sawdust.
My thoughts are for a 4 way system consisting of the following:
1) Low End to 80 (or 100)Hz: Bill Fitzmaurice Tuba HT (THT)
2) 80 to 500: Midbass based on John Inlow’s 100Hz B&C design (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/186647-mid-bass-horn-easy-build.html) but extended down to 80 Hz. I’ll probably need some help with this later.
3) 500 to 5k: Le Cleach 300Hz horn (DIY wood design) using JBL 2446 drivers that I have.
4) 5k and up: TBD. I was thinking of a bullet tweeter but don’t like the HD specs. I am looking at a Beyma T2030 tweeter because it has high sensitivity, good HD performance, and controlled dispersion (to better match the horns)
5) Mini DSP Xover and various amps
I plan on using this system for both audio and HT. It will be in a new room approximately 15 ft wide, 7-1/2 ft high and TBD long.
Any inputs on the overall compliment of drivers etc would be appreciated.
Thanks
Bob
As a fairly newb here, I am amazed at the level of participation and knowledge sharing at ALL levels form people doing builds to those doing theoretical work. Thank you all for keeping the DIY audio efforts going.
Now onto the thread. I am planning on building a horn based system and would like to get some inputs before I start making sawdust.
My thoughts are for a 4 way system consisting of the following:
1) Low End to 80 (or 100)Hz: Bill Fitzmaurice Tuba HT (THT)
2) 80 to 500: Midbass based on John Inlow’s 100Hz B&C design (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/186647-mid-bass-horn-easy-build.html) but extended down to 80 Hz. I’ll probably need some help with this later.
3) 500 to 5k: Le Cleach 300Hz horn (DIY wood design) using JBL 2446 drivers that I have.
4) 5k and up: TBD. I was thinking of a bullet tweeter but don’t like the HD specs. I am looking at a Beyma T2030 tweeter because it has high sensitivity, good HD performance, and controlled dispersion (to better match the horns)
5) Mini DSP Xover and various amps
I plan on using this system for both audio and HT. It will be in a new room approximately 15 ft wide, 7-1/2 ft high and TBD long.
Any inputs on the overall compliment of drivers etc would be appreciated.
Thanks
Bob
rocksteady40 said:
Some research into corner speakers seems worthwhile with your room size and shape. Wayne's whitepaper on corner speakers at pispeakers.com is one of several web doc's that describe the efficiency+sound_stage advantages of corner speakers. Dr. Geddes research on multi-woofer bass seems worth review.
PERSONALLY;
FIRST: I would buy an 80" Sharp LED TV during Black Friday Sales to "help launch" the HT. Life is short! Your family can watch HT this XMAS.
SECOND: I would stare at speaker-porn like the JBL DD6600 and read Dr. Geddes paper on distributed multi-woofer bass to convince myself that a horn woofer is not optimum, especially with Mini-DSP multi-amps. So.., either two 15" woofers or a single 18"-21" for the corners, plus a couple identical woofers carefully located around the room. With DSP, sealed woofers with mic-measured DSP equalization work well. As Dr. Geddes paper teaches, you can equalize bass for one listening seat, but you cannot equalize the room's multi-mode bass over the main HT seats. Only multi-woofers can help smooth deep bass modes within a HT.
THIRD: With steep Xover slopes from the Mini-DSP a three-way becomes attractive. For the MT, only your ears can decide between
1) 10"-12" cone midbass, plus a 1" CD with SEOS15 or Beyma TLP150H HEIL;
2) a LARGE midbass horn + horn or ribbon tweeter
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Look Here :
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...-tapped-bass-mids-tweeter-big-boy-system.html
Realising that DIY is ...all... about fooling about .. the end result is perennially 'elusive '
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...-tapped-bass-mids-tweeter-big-boy-system.html
Realising that DIY is ...all... about fooling about .. the end result is perennially 'elusive '
Thank everyone for your inputs/suggestions. I liked some of the characteristics of the SEOS15 and I'll have to look at the recommended readings.
I had a lot of exposure to Altec A7-500's in high school and became fond of horns. Although the A7's have their shortcomings, there's just something about the energy/dynamics that horns provide that appeal to me. Most bass/bid-basss horn construction posts that I have read talk about the impact and effortlessness that the hons have.
Have to go shovel some snow now :-(
I had a lot of exposure to Altec A7-500's in high school and became fond of horns. Although the A7's have their shortcomings, there's just something about the energy/dynamics that horns provide that appeal to me. Most bass/bid-basss horn construction posts that I have read talk about the impact and effortlessness that the hons have.
Have to go shovel some snow now :-(
I looked at Dr. Geddes papers and will probably use his approach with multiple subs. I didn't see and mention of horn subs however. I'll do more reading here and on other sites.
I think I'll go with some of the recommended speakers. Maybe A5's for mains and DD6600 for surrounds. That may kill budget though ;-)
I think I'll go with some of the recommended speakers. Maybe A5's for mains and DD6600 for surrounds. That may kill budget though ;-)
When you go shopping for JBL DD66000 rear surround speakers remember that they come in several different wood veneers
The EconoWave DIY speaker program using a 10" or 12" midbass plus a plastic $30 SEOS12 has received many positive reviews. Several HTs have been built around EconoWaves plus multiple woofers around the room. A 3-way corner speaker leveraging the EconoWave work with a large woofer, plus an EconoWave center channel under your 80" Sharp LED TV, plus a couple extra Geddes style swarm sealed woofers around the room should take your mind off the snow.
Reading EconoWave reviews could help you select between a 10"-12" midrange vs. a LARGE horn midrange.
The EconoWave DIY speaker program using a 10" or 12" midbass plus a plastic $30 SEOS12 has received many positive reviews. Several HTs have been built around EconoWaves plus multiple woofers around the room. A 3-way corner speaker leveraging the EconoWave work with a large woofer, plus an EconoWave center channel under your 80" Sharp LED TV, plus a couple extra Geddes style swarm sealed woofers around the room should take your mind off the snow.
Reading EconoWave reviews could help you select between a 10"-12" midrange vs. a LARGE horn midrange.
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Rock,
I'm not doing this to sell you something.
I'm doing this for THE KIDS!
I want to help everyone get a wide sound stage so kids at the end of the couch will hear the illusion of stereophonic sound.
I want to help everyone get deep even bass so kids will understand the horrors of war by experiencing the cannon blasts in the 1812 Overture and Saving Private Ryan BluRay.
I want to help everyone educate kids about the dynamics of real music after years of MP3 bland.
I want to bring families together for Movie Night that teach nutrition with Organic fruit and vegetable snacks.
I want our kids to build self-esteem by knowing.. "My Daddy's speakers are bigger than yours!"
You can search for MiniDSP EconoWaves as a good starting education and price point selection. You can download a couple free and a couple low priced room speaker placement software packages to aid your design.
Corner 3-ways: 1" CD +10" midbass +15"/18" woofer. all sealed with MiniDSP equalization. A 10" allows 1100-1200Hz xover to the SEOS12
Center EconoWave: 1" CD + 10" midbass, ported
Two Sealed 15"/18" Geddes Swarm woofers
Some RichMan PoorMan:
SEOS12 $30
1" compression driver: $60=DNA360 $140=Radian475PB
10" midbass: $60=Faital 10FE200; $230=Lambda TD10M
woofer: $104=Pyle 18125 $320=Lambda TD15S
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Arf, my kids say it
and many times ask me to run the Vott A5 for their friends ... really ! They even come back from a party saying that sound was horrible
To match the 90 degree horizontal polar response of the SEOS18 requires the TD15M to have a steep slope Xover at 650-700Hz. Some experts believe the DE250 compression driver can meet this requirement for low volume home use, some experts would recommend a 1.4" compression driver plus a super tweeter crossed at 10Khz.
For single listener applications, a 60H x 40V constant directivety horn can integrate the polar response with the TD15M at ~1000Hz. You may want to model this option for your listening room. The Daniel Hertz speaker from Mark Levinson mates a 12" midbass to a 60x40 CD horn, so it must be the sexy thing to do.
If you have been following the Beyond the Ariel thread Gary Dahl (g3dahl) just completed a well respected design that uses the TD15M as a midbass with a 700Hz Xover to an AH425 horn with the 1,4" Radian 745NEOPD. Gary included an 18" TD18H+ woofer plus a ribbon tweeter. I have owned Lambda TD15M and agree they are great midbass when properly integrated into a system.
Corner speakers gain 5-6db low frequency SPL boost when compared to in-room speaker placement. This allows good cone drivers to have dynamics similar to large horns. RockSteady will need to decide at what frequency he wants to start limiting vertical polar patterns... LARGE horn vs. cone midbass.
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My crossover is at 700hz (-48db with MiniDSP). The integration between the woofer and SEOS-18 is very easy in that way.
I have seen some comments on using the B&C DE250 that low, but so far not seen any argument against it. Distortion measurements show now problem and in a home environment there is no SPL problem.
Even when I play very loud no distortion what so ever is noticeable. They can go allot louder than I am able to withstand. I think if you would measure nobody is putting more that 1W in SEOS-18 and still has ears that function properly.
Next to that a 1" driver in general performs better at high frequencies. It also has less beaming.
I have seen some comments on using the B&C DE250 that low, but so far not seen any argument against it. Distortion measurements show now problem and in a home environment there is no SPL problem.
Even when I play very loud no distortion what so ever is noticeable. They can go allot louder than I am able to withstand. I think if you would measure nobody is putting more that 1W in SEOS-18 and still has ears that function properly.
Next to that a 1" driver in general performs better at high frequencies. It also has less beaming.
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My crossover is at 700hz (-48db with MiniDSP). The integration between the woofer and SEOS-18 is very easy in that way.
I have seen some comments on using the B&C DE250 that low, but so far not seen any argument against it. Distortion measurements show now problem and in a home environment there is no SPL problem.
Even when I play very loud no distortion what so ever is noticeable. They can go allot louder than I am able to withstand. I think if you would measure nobody is putting more that 1W in SEOS-18 and still has ears that function properly.
Next to that a 1" driver in general performs better at high frequencies. It also has less beaming.
Very nice! How is your enclosure stuffed? How low does the TD15LO go?
Bill
I see no advantage to a horn at LFs. Its a very poor use of space. Better is just a bunch of closed box monpoles placed about the room.
Horns to me are stricktly for the control of directivity and have no real advantages besides that. So they don't make much sense until one reaches the frequency at which they can be effective at directivity control - this is stricktly dependent on size you can live with.
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