Never heard a piano presented correctly from a big speaker either. They just don't have the "bigness". I have only heard one recording where I could close my eyes and actually believe it was real. Half-track master, Levinson, and the original B&W 801's. I guess that would be the subject for another thread.
Until they get too big such that they don't fit in the room. Then they make no sounds.
Hopefully the new rig (LCR being 5" concentric flanked by 7" woofers, with a side-firing "flanking sub" serving as stand for the left and right speakers) will make me forget the Tannoy 12" Duals that just don't fit in my new loft. The concentric is a 5" Pioneer Elite job, magnesium cone midrange and ceramic-graphite tweeter, neo magnet
Oh, and to your other point, my apologies for writing unclearly. By "Duals" I meant 8" Tannoy Dual Concentrics, not 8" KEF Uni-Q's. I tried to get the 8" Uni-Q's but gave up after a couple of months.
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Might be difficult for Morel to pull that one off since their woofers use inset magnets like Dynaudio.
The Tannoys have three screws. I've never actually taken one off, though, so there may be something more involved.
iv owned a pair of hawthorne 15" silver iris for several years. theyr a bit problematic. the crossover freq is way to high causing them to sound harsh in the upper midrange/lower tweeter freq. dispersion is also pretty bad without a horn.
i exchanged the stock eminence with a selenium 220, dayton horn and a minidsp. lowering the xover from 2500 to 1200hz. sounds alot better.
even the 10" have some of the same issues. i cant understand why they sell a expensive "sterling" version with a pair of $1000 crossover still keeping the same xover point and not utilising a seperate horn. nomatter how good the caps and coils are you will still have breakup and dispertion issues. only my opinion.
Winslow - I promised to keep you posted on some measurements of the BEYMA 10XC25.
Tests I did today have shown that:
- The 1/3 octave smoothed measurements are very (very) close to those published by Beyma.
- A close investigation of the published plots indicated there may be a bit of fun ang games to get a relatively smooth an uncoloured response.
- Making measurements without smoothing there are a couple of features that really impact these for use outside sound reinforcement - in my humble opinion...
View attachment Beyma 10xc25 Nopara.pdf
Things of relevance to these measurements:
- Driver mounted in 280mm wide, 320mm high closed box stuffed with wool. (sizes approximate)
- Enclosure about 1.3 metres from floor and ceiling.
- Measurement made at 1 metre on axis
- Behringer cal mic used
- SPL something in the order of 90-100dB
- Gated measurements used - hence loss of meaningful data at low frequencies. (Cut off plots)
The top 3 plots have no smoothing applied at all. When smoothed these are remarkably similar to the Beyma data.
I also measured the second driver, which coincidentally I just reconed, and the response is smack on the OEM response. A nice thing to see!
The way I think Beyma address the rising response in the bass unit is to put the XO at 2KHz (if I recall 2.2?) and use this to roll off the rising response of the bass unit.
That dip in the horn is there, and is real. Without active EQ not a lot is going to fix that. That said, the unsmoothed response is rather unflattering - when run through a 1/3 octave smoothing, there is still a dip but it does not look like a chasm.
The plot showing bass and horn response is rather daunting... A quick listen to the bass driver shows it really does need some work.
I have not had a lot of time to think this through yet - but did choose to play with some active EQ on this to see how it could be "beaten into submission". I have not tried to be elegant e.g. using the rolloff of a high order XO's on the bass unit to flatten out the peak - just for now I "smacked it down" with a parametric EQ.
That said, with enough EQ you get the response shown at the bottom. It looks better than is sounds - though I suspect that a pair of these with a sub would be respectable.
Just for giggles - here is what I did in terms of EQ...
- BASS Unit EQ1:
Type: Parametric
Centre Freq: 1700Hz
Q: 4
Gain: +5dB
- BASS Unit EQ2:
Type: Parametric
Centre Freq: 300Hz
Q: 0.8
Gain:-5dB
- BASS Unit EQ3:
Type: Parametric
Centre Freq: 500Hz
Q: 10
Gain: +10dB
- Horn Unit EQ1:
Type: Parametric
Centre Freq: 7000Hz
Q: 0.7
Gain: +10dB
- Horn Unit EQ2:
Type: Parametric
Centre Freq: 4850Hz
Q: 10
Gain: +10dB
- Horn Unit EQ3:
Type: Parametric
Centre Freq: 7000Hz (yes - but High Q)
Q: 10
Gain: +10dB
Would I use them like this? No.
Will they work, and would they be good for PA? Yes
Are they HIFI? I don't think so yet...
Tests I did today have shown that:
- The 1/3 octave smoothed measurements are very (very) close to those published by Beyma.
- A close investigation of the published plots indicated there may be a bit of fun ang games to get a relatively smooth an uncoloured response.
- Making measurements without smoothing there are a couple of features that really impact these for use outside sound reinforcement - in my humble opinion...
View attachment Beyma 10xc25 Nopara.pdf
Things of relevance to these measurements:
- Driver mounted in 280mm wide, 320mm high closed box stuffed with wool. (sizes approximate)
- Enclosure about 1.3 metres from floor and ceiling.
- Measurement made at 1 metre on axis
- Behringer cal mic used
- SPL something in the order of 90-100dB
- Gated measurements used - hence loss of meaningful data at low frequencies. (Cut off plots)
The top 3 plots have no smoothing applied at all. When smoothed these are remarkably similar to the Beyma data.
I also measured the second driver, which coincidentally I just reconed, and the response is smack on the OEM response. A nice thing to see!
The way I think Beyma address the rising response in the bass unit is to put the XO at 2KHz (if I recall 2.2?) and use this to roll off the rising response of the bass unit.
That dip in the horn is there, and is real. Without active EQ not a lot is going to fix that. That said, the unsmoothed response is rather unflattering - when run through a 1/3 octave smoothing, there is still a dip but it does not look like a chasm.
The plot showing bass and horn response is rather daunting... A quick listen to the bass driver shows it really does need some work.
I have not had a lot of time to think this through yet - but did choose to play with some active EQ on this to see how it could be "beaten into submission". I have not tried to be elegant e.g. using the rolloff of a high order XO's on the bass unit to flatten out the peak - just for now I "smacked it down" with a parametric EQ.
That said, with enough EQ you get the response shown at the bottom. It looks better than is sounds - though I suspect that a pair of these with a sub would be respectable.
Just for giggles - here is what I did in terms of EQ...
- BASS Unit EQ1:
Type: Parametric
Centre Freq: 1700Hz
Q: 4
Gain: +5dB
- BASS Unit EQ2:
Type: Parametric
Centre Freq: 300Hz
Q: 0.8
Gain:-5dB
- BASS Unit EQ3:
Type: Parametric
Centre Freq: 500Hz
Q: 10
Gain: +10dB
- Horn Unit EQ1:
Type: Parametric
Centre Freq: 7000Hz
Q: 0.7
Gain: +10dB
- Horn Unit EQ2:
Type: Parametric
Centre Freq: 4850Hz
Q: 10
Gain: +10dB
- Horn Unit EQ3:
Type: Parametric
Centre Freq: 7000Hz (yes - but High Q)
Q: 10
Gain: +10dB
Would I use them like this? No.
Will they work, and would they be good for PA? Yes
Are they HIFI? I don't think so yet...
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10" coax for the car?!?!
Aren't the benefit of a 'point source' driver kinda nullified with legs, tunnel & shifter in the way and unequal listening distances/angles?
At home I used Gedlee Summas, but nearly all of my car audio experiments have been variations on a point-source speaker, or approximating one. And the reason is very simple:
You're sitting very close to the drivers.
For instance, if I listen to my Summas at a distance of 4-6 meters, they blend well. But if you listen to them very close, the transition to the midrange suffers because you're in the nearfield.
Long story short, I prefer not to listen to speakers in the nearfield, and in the car that's hard to do because of the large distances between woofer and tweeter.
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