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Old 5th November 2012, 11:11 PM   #21
winslow is offline winslow  United States
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If a 10 is too big, why make 12s and 15s?
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Old 5th November 2012, 11:46 PM   #22
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Old 5th November 2012, 11:50 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by tvrgeek View Post
Probably because a 10 inch is a bit too big to reach a tweeter along with the problem that coax speakers just don't work as well as we all want them to. Just my guess.
I beg to differ. The modern KEF Uni-Q coaxials for example, may be some of the best drivers out there, period, both tweeter and midrange. The BMS units are also very good.

Reaching a tweeter is also not an issue as the boost provided by the 1pi space of the coaxial cone reduces power handling demands. A ~1.2khz crossover frequency is very doable as long as you cut off moderately steep and don't use too ringy a cone.
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Old 6th November 2012, 08:47 AM   #24
tvrgeek is offline tvrgeek  United States
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Rock,
We will have to differ. I have a set, and think very little of them. Their crossover is not smooth or free is issues and they don't image any better than my own conventional designs.

1.2K is way too high for any 10 I have seen due to mass, beaming, and breakup modes. I have never found a tweeter whose distortion is usable below 1.6 and that is 4th order. Yes, we hope the cone works like a horn to improve the efficiency and lower distortion, but somehow it does not quite deliver on that promise. Just like we hope the acoustic center is the same, and we don't get off axis interference issues. All great ideas. All not quite delivered. I keep hoping.

Win,
Why do they make bigger? You make what you can sell. They made and sold Yugo's too.
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Old 6th November 2012, 10:06 AM   #25
el`Ol is offline el`Ol  Germany
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Originally Posted by winslow View Post
How do you like the Ciare?
Not quite the transparency of the Hiquphon tweeters on my other system, but more coherent (despite having the crossover point where the human ear is most sensitive, in contrast to the extended midrange concept in my other system). Amazing is that the 10" woofer section has no beaming whatsoever at 2 kHz. The polar response at 20 kHz goes up to about 45 , also more than one would expect from a 1"er.
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Old 6th November 2012, 10:19 AM   #26
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Look out for a pair of Tannoy dual concentrics - good 10" and really good 15"
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In the interests of full disclosure JRKO = James Rupert Kingsley Osborne. And yes, my parents will pay for it when I choose their retirement home
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Old 6th November 2012, 05:25 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by tvrgeek View Post
Rock,
We will have to differ. I have a set, and think very little of them. Their crossover is not smooth or free is issues
I agree with you on that. KEF's crossover is pretty half-assed.

Quote:
and they don't image any better than my own conventional designs.
The point of a coax isn't imaging, it's a wide sweet spot and even, controlled power response.

Quote:
1.2K is way too high for any 10 I have seen due to mass, beaming, and breakup modes.
Not sure what you mean by mass.

Beaming is not a concern. At around 1.2 you will have a roughly 120 to 90 degree radiation and it will also guide the tweeter radiation with the same pattern. This is not beaming.

Breakup is the real concern. Audible breakup is probably a necessary evil, as a good 10" woofer will be in breakup above 2khz. Some breakup is pretty benign though, like the Acoustic elegance cones for example.

Quote:
I have never found a tweeter whose distortion is usable below 1.6 and that is 4th order. Yes, we hope the cone works like a horn to improve the efficiency and lower distortion, but somehow it does not quite deliver on that promise.
If that's the case, then tell me the likely crossover point of the following graph:

Click the image to open in full size.

...it's a Dayton RS28F dome tweeter crossed over at 1khz, with 10W input
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Old 6th November 2012, 08:36 PM   #28
tvrgeek is offline tvrgeek  United States
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By mass, mass of the cone. That has pretty severe limitations on HF output. That is why great big honking subs frequently can't reach much over 100 Hz. I like my 830500's because they will work as high as 200, but still get me the low 30's I want. A nice light 10, should be good to 500 to 700 if the breakup is high enough, or damped well enough. If it is light enough to make it up into the low K's, then it just won't have the mass or the voice coil to make it into the bass.

Just because you can do a frequency chart showing how low a tweeter will go, does not mean I would ever want to use one there. DISTORTION is the problem. The larger ( 1 1/8) Dayton may have an advantage on the lower end to most 1" drivers, but I still would not use it that low. It is a reasonably well respected unit. It has lower frequency breakup issues to match the larger size and higher mass. Depending on your hearing, they may still be out of range so it could serve you well.

I can't comment on your graph as I don't know how it was made. Small differences in method make very large differences in the graph. An inch difference in mic position, a ms or so in gating, resolution, post processing. If I made your chart, I would probably think it was a tad on the bright side. My measurements need only be consistent to me so I can relate them to my experience. My charts would be just as meaningless to you as yours are to me.

Everyone has different sensitivities. Low treble distortion seems to bother me and my wife more than it does others. Even though I am an old fart, I seem to still have quite extended HF range, though my discrimination is decreased from 30 years ago. I seem to be more sensitive to bass unbalance than when I was a young whippersnapper. Too loud bass really bothers me.

You are admitting a 10 inch will have breakup issues as low as 2K. That is WAY too close for me for a 1K crossover even at 4th order. 500 would be a far more appropriate crossover. Maybe you could pull it off with an active crossover. Could be cheaper too considering the cost of copper these days.

As I said, it is not the concept I disagree with. It is the execution.

JRKO,
Yea, I remember the big Tannoy's from days past. I have not seen one in a store in the last 30 years. The Washington D.C. metro area is not noted for hi-fi.

el'
I'd like to try some Hiquphon's, but have not found a mid-base that can push to 4K or so where I would want to cross them over. Going three way has not had good results for me. It could be my crossover skills are not there yet. I really hate to go down to 2500 or so. I rather put my crossovers further to the edges of the critical sensitivity range. I am going to order some anyway. They don't measure that great, but owners seem to be very fond of them. I see Linkwitz has latched onto the Seas woven poly midwoofers. As they are pretty light and breakup pretty well damped, maybe, just maybe the smaller one......
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Old 6th November 2012, 11:34 PM   #29
winslow is offline winslow  United States
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How noticeable is the modulation of the hf?
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Old 7th November 2012, 05:32 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by tvrgeek View Post
Just because you can do a frequency chart showing how low a tweeter will go, does not mean I would ever want to use one there. DISTORTION is the problem.
that graph shows the distortion. It shows that it is not a problem at all.

Quote:
By mass, mass of the cone. That has pretty severe limitations on HF output. That is why great big honking subs frequently can't reach much over 100 Hz. I like my 830500's because they will work as high as 200, but still get me the low 30's I want. A nice light 10, should be good to 500 to 700 if the breakup is high enough, or damped well enough. If it is light enough to make it up into the low K's, then it just won't have the mass or the voice coil to make it into the bass.
You would be wrong. Mass is barely at all an issue. If you reduce and linearize inductance you can get very good extension even out of heavy cones.
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