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Old 5th November 2012, 11:52 PM   #21
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pos View Post
An uncorrelated L/R stereo signal split into 3 speakers following this matrix will result in correlated sound between speakers, as they all have sums or differences of L and R...
The spatial comb filtering from 3 sources is not as severe as from 2 sources, since it almost never happens all the three signals to have exact amplitude and phase to cancel, whereas with two sources cancellation happens in every wavelength of spatial shift.

I've done comb filtering perception listening tests using mono pink noise (worst possible signal) and 3 speakers are much better than 2.

Here's some of my subjective results I did just recently:
Elias Pekonen Home Page - 2 vs 3 Speaker Stereo listening tests at high frequencies


- Elias
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Old 5th November 2012, 11:57 PM   #22
pos is offline pos  Europe
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very interesting, thank you
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Old 6th November 2012, 12:03 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by a_tewinkel View Post
Yes but that's still not very good. And even if ProLogic II is much better than standard linear matrixing, it did not impress me... don't know about you guys...
Personally, I am impressed with PLII. The first time I heard it was in Jim Fosgate's laboratory and it was a all analog implementation. It sounded wonderful and had absolutely no tonal coloration at all. The next time I heard it sound as good as the analog version was on a Arcam AVR600 I purchased last year. Once again, no colorations, and the speakers just disappeared, and I was immersed with pure uncolored sound.

These are the only two times I was impressed with PLII
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Old 6th November 2012, 06:41 AM   #24
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Griesinger has some interesting PPT slides up on his webpage about "Pitch, Timbre, and Source Separation".
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Old 6th November 2012, 07:59 AM   #25
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Here's some of my subjective results I did just recently:
Elias Pekonen Home Page - 2 vs 3 Speaker Stereo listening tests at high frequencies


- Elias
Maybe more speakers isn't such a bad idea after all?

I strongly disagree with your statement "center phantom image weak or non existent" for 2-speaker stereo with high pass filtered music.
I do get a stable phantom center from high pass filtered (48dB@1.6kHz) stereo music tracks.

Possible explanations for your findings:
- Low direct/reverberation ratio. Is your room treated in any way? What kind of speaker directivity was used?
- Difference in localization perception. There are reports that some people can't localize phantom images. You've reported similar perceptions in the past. You should have other people listen to your test in your room and report their observations.
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Old 6th November 2012, 11:31 AM   #26
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
Maybe more speakers isn't such a bad idea after all?
Nobody said more speakers are bad (think Ambisonics ) but certainly it is more efficient to use only one stereo speaker

It looks like 2 speakers is the worst scenario.


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Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
I strongly disagree with your statement "center phantom image weak or non existent" for 2-speaker stereo with high pass filtered music.
I do get a stable phantom center from high pass filtered (48dB@1.6kHz) stereo music tracks.
I also don't have problems at 1.6kHz but the problems occur at higher freqs above about 6 kHz.

There is published scientific evidence that humans cannot perceive phantom images at very high freqs (the reference was given in another diyaudio thread). That is the problem of 2 speaker stereo.

3 speaker matrix stereo seems to solve this problem somehow.


- Elias
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Old 6th November 2012, 11:40 AM   #27
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It looks like 2 speakers is the worst scenario.
...in your personal priority list of what sound reproduction needs to be capable of. That list might not be the same for everybody. My priorities are certainly different.

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I also don't have problems at 1.6kHz but the problems occur at higher freqs above about 6 kHz.
Your page says "center phantom image weak or non existent" for frequency band 1-20kHz. It doesn't say 6-20kHz!? The cutoff in the track I've used is 1.6kHz (not 1kHz as in your example), still I get a perfect phantom center.

You skipped over my questions about room and speaker characteristics in your listening test.

Last edited by markus76; 6th November 2012 at 11:46 AM.
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Old 6th November 2012, 02:11 PM   #28
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
Your page says "center phantom image weak or non existent" for frequency band 1-20kHz. It doesn't say 6-20kHz!?
In 2 speaker stereo the phantom image is very weak, for the reason at freqs around 1 kHz there will be a phantom but at higher freqs above 6 kHz the image is split into the speakers. This happens if there is signal energy at both freq ranges.

When there is less signal energy at 1 kHz and more energy above 6kHz there is no phantom imaging and only the two speakers will be perceived.

So, overall the 2 speaker stereo does not work very well in terms of phantom imaging.


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I get a perfect phantom center.
That is highly subjective statement
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Old 6th November 2012, 02:55 PM   #29
Rudolf is offline Rudolf  Germany
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When there is less signal energy at 1 kHz and more energy above 6kHz there is no phantom imaging and only the two speakers will be perceived.
Must be weird kinds of music you are listening to.
I prefer music were - by and large - the harmonics roll off with rising frequency.

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Old 6th November 2012, 07:03 PM   #30
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Heres my experimental matrix system at proto stage. Three FRS8 at reinforced cardboard dipole baffles Matrixed for coefficient of 0.5. Very old proto speaker has been forced laying on the floor to serve as a dipole bass below about 100Hz.
Click the image to open in full size.

Sound... amazing


- Elias
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