..or its a 5 dollar fix waiting for a papyrus embedded paper driver with the satori label and a markup of 2 (or more) times the price..
I've used this driver in a design I'm finishing. It is a driver that is very easy to work with and one that has very little 'colour'. It sounds neutral to me. It's not a full range driver in my opinion, but it can be crossed at 3k second order without too much of an issue. Take care of the back wave and make sure the sealed cabinet isn't too shallow. It's a great driver, well designed and well made, but it is poor to terrible value. I mean you can build a great set of speakers for the price of one of these babies! In my case I used them in my 'ultimate' build. The speakers to which all others will be compared, and a build that has taken me 2 years to (almost) complete My next design will use the 10F I think. Sold on the benefits of the 3 way.
My next design will use the 10F I think. Sold on the benefits of the 3 way.I'm going to put a thread for my speakers together eventually, but the basics of my design are: Tweeter: D3004/660000 - Mid: 12MU/4731T00 - Woofer: 18WU/4747T00. Crossovers 350Hz, 2nd order, and 2800Hz, 4th order. The mid is definitely capable of a second order XO as high as 4-5k but I found a 4th order crossover more to my liking. I tried both and preferred the 4th order, but that has generally been my preference. Format of the speakers: slim floor standing with sloping baffle. It is similar in many ways to Troels Ekta speaker but using the illuminator drivers. Sensitivity is about 87db I estimate. No good photos, perhaps I'll have time this long weekend
Actually, I have never heard the Illuminators, but my old Scanspeak 5.5" 8530K -01 pair is still quicker and smoother sounding, than my other efforts with Peerless, Volt, HiVi, Celestion, Dynavox woofers, or Markaudio full rangers.
The part about crossover design is most likely true- I have never gone back, after active crossovers.
With tiny class a amps, I thought I'd require bigger amps, but after a few months, 10 or 15 watts to Revelators, and on special Scanspeak limited editions, is fine, while using a big amp on 98db Celestions for below 165hz.
I'm impressed at the players the Revelators reveal, equal to my BG Neo 10 pair, but with a much flatter response.
Not quite as revealing as some 505 mini panel electrostatics, but without glare, too.
I get the feeling that a lot of people are basing their opinions strictly off of frequency response charts rather than actual hands-on experience and listening. Those opinions, and suggestions of better value offerings, as well intentioned as they are, are not that valuable to OP.
I can’t speak to whether the 12mu’s are worth the money since they are quite expensive. I think that comes down to the quality and investment you’ve made in the rest of the speaker components and the signal chain. To be paired with silver flutes, as good of a value as they are, would be silly. If you have other drivers that are in a similar price range / performance bracket then it might make sense.
I can say that the 12mu’s are very impressive. They are extremely transparent and strike a really good balance of the natural sound of cellulose, with the detail of harder cone drivers. I am really impressed and am going to keep my set to use in a future build. I originally bought them out of curiosity and was expecting to let them go after testing. But I was impressed enough that I not only kept them, but instead also bought a set of 18wu’s to go with them.
I can’t speak to whether the 12mu’s are worth the money since they are quite expensive. I think that comes down to the quality and investment you’ve made in the rest of the speaker components and the signal chain. To be paired with silver flutes, as good of a value as they are, would be silly. If you have other drivers that are in a similar price range / performance bracket then it might make sense.
I can say that the 12mu’s are very impressive. They are extremely transparent and strike a really good balance of the natural sound of cellulose, with the detail of harder cone drivers. I am really impressed and am going to keep my set to use in a future build. I originally bought them out of curiosity and was expecting to let them go after testing. But I was impressed enough that I not only kept them, but instead also bought a set of 18wu’s to go with them.
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Why would they want to do that ? Then they'd have to work more, open new production lines, outsource... This way, as long as there are enough people willing to pay that amount of money for the drivers that weren't improved 30 years (Discovery, Classic, Revelator lines), they will keep on doing exactly what they want.
On topic - i'll just quote myself from other forum...
If you are going to use 12MU, i'd recommend 8 ohm version. It is somewhat better in distortion than 4 ohm brother. Both measured by HobbyHifi:
https://s11.postimg.cc/41yzzk0pv/12_MU_izobli_enje.jpg
If you want same or better level of performance but cheaper, try to get your hands on Tang Band W4-1337SDF. HD2 and HD3 remains under 0.3% from 400Hz-3.5KHz at 95dB - not too shabby. Not to mention you can buy 4 of them for the price of one 12MU. Measurements by Klang&Ton:
https://s11.postimg.cc/8cdnv55sz/1337.jpg
It's kinda different beast from W4-1337SD measured by Zaph. It does have HD3 peak at 4.5 that correlates with breakup at 13.5KHz (That 1337SD/SA doesn't have) but it is low in level as is rest of the distortion that bothers the Nd version (Nd version has rise of HD2 from 500Hz to 1000Hz and a bit higher HD3 in the passband). I ordered 4 pieces for me but one of them has been destroyed before the shippment arrived - but that gave me the unique opportunity to look at the core and how it is made. Machined Al phaseplug is glued to the core - that can be bad thing (like you see on the pics) but the flux is a bit stronger because there is no hole through the pole peace. Copper sleeve is visible on the pics too as is underhung motor. Not too bad for the 55 bucks midrange. I've failed to find better midrange for twice the money (lower distortion, better CSD, more linear frequency response) - but for twice the money you can buy 2 of them and here we go again...
Sorry for blurry pics - my lens was dirty, and i didn't want to do it again, so here goes nothing:
https://s11.postimg.cc/5wbuhanqb/DSC_0041.jpg
https://s11.postimg.cc/8265bsr6r/DSC_0042.jpg
https://s11.postimg.cc/vho2h5axv/DSC_0044.jpg
https://s11.postimg.cc/ypsju6x7n/DSC_0045.jpg
https://s11.postimg.cc/8ivybz4bn/DSC_0046.jpg
Two W4-1337SDF's or ZA14W08's per side in MTM would demolish one 12MU per side in every possible way and for less money all other things being equal, so no - i don't think that 12mu is worth the money.
That's because you are looking at the wrong scale. The distortion level in % is over on the right hand side. When looking at the distortion ignore the dB scale on the left.
What do you suppose the author meant by the "85db" and "95db" overlaying the two respective graphs?
Thanks for clarifying.
Wow. Two scales, two curves, but one scale is just for optical reasons and completely way off any reasonable relation. And it goes up to 110dB, compared to the SPL measurement, which has an upper limit of 100dB. On top, the distortion scale is not logarithmic. That's beyond silly....
Also the Waterfall, awkward.
Reference is 100dB, that speaker is at about 85dB (-15dB in the diagram), the diagrams lower limit is -35dB, which, for this speaker, means -20dB. Every resonance below -20dB SPL cannot be seen.
Regarding presentation, the Hobby HiFi measurements are miles above the Klang&Ton's, the resolution of their distortion graphs are far more revealing (and with a correct log scale!!!), and they measure K5 too, which in my experience (from electronics though, not loudspeakers) is way more offending than K2 and K3. Those can hardly be detected by ear at levels below 1%.
But OT anyway.... I just wouldn't judge a driver based only on these measurements. It seems to me that the Tang Band has some resonance effects at about 1'000 Hz, and the heavy and broad breakup from 10kHz up doesn't really help if one wants to cross high, at or above 4 kHz.
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What's so strange about that ? Troels uses it quite frequently:
SBAcoustics-tweeters
From graph i posted i can see that ad 95dB loudness from 450Hz-4000Hz (which would probably be the highest i'd crossover it with a tweeter anyway) HD2 doesn't go over 0.5% and HD3 doesn't go over 0.3%. I also see that HD3 had barely moved up in that range with 10dB more loudness going from 85dB/m to 95dB/m.
I don't understand what do you mean about 100dB reference ?
Agreed about limits of waterfall diagram - but then again, where can you find waterfall measurements that show more than -25dB ? HobbyHiFi measurement resolution of waterfall is hidious. I found only one place that they do it - and it is barely -30dB depending on scaling from driver to driver:
TB SPEAKERS W4-1337SDF (Full-range 4", 8 Ohm, 50 Wmax)
SCAN SPEAK 12MU/4731T00 (Mid-range 4", 4 Ohm, 150 Wmax)
Well it depends. I've found much more bad measurements in HobbyHiFi than in K&T. I have few examples that enter my mind right now.
You have to judge them by something and if some driver measurements are bad, i really don't care for someone else's impression of sound of that particular driver. The best thing would be a competent engineer that can use both to their max and compare them side by side - but i don't see that happening any time soon.
At 1000Hz is a measurement artefact and can be seen on lot of their driver measurements. If there was resonance there it would be seen on the impedance plot. I wouldn't crossover higher than 4KHz 12mu or W4-1337SDF. Broad breakup that is a product of titanium cone (and is characteristic for all metal cones) is easily solved with a notch filter - it all depends on the competence of the designer.
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Well, in fact there is something on the impedance plot, at 500 and 1'000Hz:
https://www.oaudio.de/out/media/3d1c23123c88dfeade1.pdf
It seems a nice driver anyway, I just don't like breakups who do need notches and such, if alternatives are available. With passive crossovers it does cost something too and the judgement about whether they can influence negatively the sound is open for me.
In the same sensitivity and price range, there is the 10F/8424, which is a great driver too. Not all ScanSpeaks are 30 years old without any improvements made, and overly expensive
http://www.audiocomponents.nl/download/scan-speak/10F-8424G00 - Klang & Ton 2010-2.pdf
http://www.audiocomponents.nl/download/scan-speak/10F-8424G00 - Hobby HiFi 2012-2.pdf
The Tang Band W4-655 is one notch cheaper, but seems to have been improved over the older version (has a golden phase plug now)
Lautsprecher Shop | Tang Band W4-655 | Lautsprecher Selbstbau
I privided a link where impedance is measured by CLIO and there is nothing at 1000Hz. Here's mine measured with DATS:
Best sounding loudspeakers i've made or heard are using metal cones. So much so that i almost don't even look at other materials besides metal and aramid cones. I'd like to work with ceramics but it is out of my price range. If you use them in their pistonic range the rewards are immense - but as you've said it, it is a matter of preference. Every cone material breaks up - plastic around 1KHz but with very low q resonance so you can't see it clearly on frequency response. Although it is easier to work with, i prefer not to listen driver through its break-up region. Playing music with notched alu cone resonance at -32dB i couldn't notice any ill effects and then i made it -45dB, nothing changed but i could do it so i did.
In the same sensitivity and price range, there is the 10F/8424, which is a great driver too. Not all ScanSpeaks are 30 years old without any improvements made, and overly expensive
http://www.audiocomponents.nl/download/scan-speak/10F-8424G00 - Klang & Ton 2010-2.pdf
http://www.audiocomponents.nl/download/scan-speak/10F-8424G00 - Hobby HiFi 2012-2.pdf
I'm quite fond of SS 10F although i don't think i'll ever use it. There is that shelf at 1800Hz that i've measured too but i think it would be quite manageable even with passive crossover. If i ever use any 3" driver it would be Visaton FRS8 or Peerless TG9 in MTM with some alu dome Nd tweeter crossed around 2KHz.
It looks good but i don't like how it measures:
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I'd probably use W4-1320SIF if paper cone was consideration:
It looks exactly like W4-1337SDF but with bamboo reinforced paper cone instead of titanium. Measures better than 10F where it counts in my opinion.
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