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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 3rd December 2012, 05:57 PM   #821
Telstar is offline Telstar  Italy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Caldwell View Post
Another comment I might make about the active vs passive debate is that when we are going "active" we have very little "high def, high transparency" equipment to choose from. I often use a Behringer DCX2496 for my clients systems, but it needs some serious modding to sound transparent. And the DEQX has pretty good built-in dacs, but even so it can sound much better with outboard dacs such as the Antelope Zodiac Gold (to name just one I've tried and really liked)

IMO, if we as DIYers and semi-pros (or even pro-pros) had more transparent active crossovers with more options and flexibility, it would be no contest in favor of active.
As it is, when I listen to my FAST type open baffle full-range, driven with a series crossover (yes MiiB, I hear you nodding your head!), and using a single amp driven by a modded DEQ2496, the transparency of this system gives any top end system (including my own) some very serious competition.

I would love to see stuff like the Behringer dcx or Mini-DSP with truly transparent dacs or digital outs at similar prices to the dcx2496... it would make integration with active crossovers much more palatable to those who don't want to have to mod their gear just to get it good enough for rock'n roll.

All of which goes to say that IMO we need to develop some much more transparent active crossover/eq systems before we can convincingly demonstrate how much better active can be. As it stands, unless you're willing to spend big bucks on a deqx with digital outs AND THEN ADD two high quality external dacs, it's pretty hard to get top notch transparency.

So I guess I'm siding with Pano and MiiB on this argument... UNLESS we're using the deq + DEQX + really good external dacs.
Well said.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 08:53 PM   #822
Telstar is offline Telstar  Italy
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Originally Posted by Pano View Post
You may well be hearing a real difference, and it may be the different crossovers. But I don't know if it's active vs passive. I have not noticed the effect going from active to passive, but admit I wasn't listening for it.
Well, I heard a difference with different digital filters crossing at the same frequency.
And normally I'm quite insensitive to those (i.e. on top of a DAC).

Let's try to sum up pros and cons of both approaches (i'd like to split active into digital and analog-line level though, electronic for short)

*passive XO
+requires a single amp
+makes the speakers easily portable
-expensive if using boutique parts
-time-consuming and harder to implement it right

*active digital XO
+more power-efficient
+separates amplifiers to a dedicated narrower band
-requires multiple amplifiers ($)
+allows for phase linear filters (or whatever is your preference)
+allows for endless adjustment (free)
+allows for higher orders without degrading sound
-introduces jitter
-harder to setup (at least first time )
-in some cases requires a computer source
-requires an A/D if using analogue source
-requires multiple DACs ($)

*active electronic XO
+more power-efficient
+separates amplifiers to a dedicated narrower band
-requires multiple amplifiers ($)
-usually not adjustable and no DIY electronic XO exist easy to make
-harder to do time align
-does not allow for slopes steep as digital XO

Let's see if i missed something
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Last edited by Telstar; 3rd December 2012 at 08:55 PM. Reason: added more :)
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Old 3rd December 2012, 08:58 PM   #823
Telstar is offline Telstar  Italy
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Originally Posted by gedlee View Post
There are "con's" to alcohol consumption!? I have never heard of that.
Your liver knows all of them
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Old 3rd December 2012, 09:36 PM   #824
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My analogue electronic crossover allows for 50 different xover points between 50Hz and 20kHz. Plenty enough for me and I get the choice of quality of components to achieve those. I'm fine with 24dB slopes btw. All I need to adjust them is a soldering iron and a handful of components, can't think of many diy projects simpler than that and it's easier than wiring a passive from scratch.
I bought my amps s/h which worked out cheaper than passive using boutiquey components.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 09:50 PM   #825
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Telstar View Post
*passive XO
You forgot one of the most important pluses...

In a passive system with a well implemented series XO there is automatic dynamic compensation, Something no active XO can do (well at least without some rube goldberg feedback mechanism)


Quote:
*active digital XO
*active electronic XO
Unless implemented as a PLLXO, takes a whole lot of work to make transparent... a digital unit has at least one pre-amp stage, and an analog one is like multiple cascaded pre-amps.

dave
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Old 3rd December 2012, 10:05 PM   #826
tinitus is offline tinitus  Europe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by planet10 View Post
.......with a well implemented series XO there is automatic dynamic compensation......
sounds interesting
I have never been attracted to series xo
is there a way to determine when the dynamic auto compensating actually happens ?
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Old 3rd December 2012, 10:24 PM   #827
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is there a way to determine when the dynamic auto compensating actually happens ?
When you play music thru it.

dave
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Old 3rd December 2012, 10:40 PM   #828
ra7 is offline ra7  United States
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Originally Posted by Barleywater View Post
What? Low distortion due to their high efficiency? Whole principle of compression driver and horn is harnessing non linear properties of sound in high pressure air. The lower the distortion, the less efficient.
Andrew, this is very interesting. Can you expand on how compression drivers bring more distortion than regular direct radiators? If that's what you're saying.

IME, CDs sound much cleaner in the mids compared to cones in the home environment.

Horn-loaded woofers also sound like they have more headroom and sound much cleaner than when they are conventionally mounted.

I like symphonic music too. And regular radiators just don't do the dynamics right, i.e., it doesn't sound real.
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Old 3rd December 2012, 11:14 PM   #829
tinitus is offline tinitus  Europe
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Originally Posted by planet10 View Post
When you play music thru it.
dave
ahh, you mean when it sounds good
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Old 3rd December 2012, 11:45 PM   #830
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ahh, you mean when it sounds good
Not the thot i had. All but the most compressed music has dynamics in it that start shifting the drivers paraeters around.

dave
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