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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 23rd October 2012, 05:00 PM   #441
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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There are actually distortion advantages for many drivers to be driven from a higher than zero ohm impedance, such as reductions in flux modulation distortion and thermal compression.
Well I certainly don't like running compression drivers straight from the amp, they don't sound good. A series resistor, or a resistive divider works well. SOme folks like a transformer or autoformer better.
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Old 23rd October 2012, 05:11 PM   #442
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The DEQX aligns everything from measurement using the amp/speaker combination for each driver/crossover set, so anything added/subtracted by each amp is cancelled by the calibration. Yes I agree that theoretically A/D/A shouldn't sound as transparent but it really does to me. I have listened critically to Anthony Gallo's, Top end B&W Nautilus and Wilson Watt/Puppy's in great systems but I honestly think what I have now sounds more natural. Unbelievable I know but it has to be the box of tricks doing this. I have spent decades trying to find sound as good as the best live events and I'm closer now to that than I have ever heard. Of course I realise that live music isn't always regarded as HI-Fi but I want - punch in the stomach, almost zero audible distortion and a sense of the real musical performance in front of me. I now have that, albeit comparing to what I like in a mic'd, amp'd venue. Even so, a solo voice and especially an acoustic guitar or piano sounds just like the real thing in my room. Solo Drums have absolutely mind blowing attack, you hear the skins themselves being struck in a sort of electrostatic, transparent way. I can't find words to describe it but It's almost EXACTLY as in a great venue. That's why I swore when I first got the thing 'tuned in'
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Old 23rd October 2012, 05:20 PM   #443
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.....don't the big Tannoys have a "Drivers only" connection in the back? One can use their built in or your own external crossover.
not the old ones upto 1979 or so when production moved to Coatbridge.
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Old 23rd October 2012, 05:39 PM   #444
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I have a HT system with 24 bit processing that sounds very good with music - it's a bit more neutral spectrally than my all tube two channel HQ audio system - since the Onkyo 9.1 processor does spectral room convolution and delay compensation individually for each channel at the listening position during setup, but it's really not in the same league as far as ultimate soundfield, smoothness, imaging and detail as the all tube system, although the HT system is quite good in each of these regards, IMO. In fact, I tend to be struck how in many ways the two very different systems with different sourcing sonically resemble each other overall.
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Old 23rd October 2012, 07:36 PM   #445
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I use a Berhinger DEQ in front of the amp to shape the response in my listening room. It makes a big difference, in a good way. Time and phase I used to do in the DSP crossover, but now do with driver position and passive crossover. Both work, and are essential for great results.
My in room response generally follows the B&K listening curve, I.E. a gently falling response from ~400Hz to 20Khz. -6dB at the top end. My tweeters conk out about 17K, but that's the general curve.
Hey Pano, interesting comment.

I actually use BOTH a deqx AND a Behringer DEQ2496 on my larger system (the H3 refd in my website). I use the deqx outdoors to get the best "naked, near anechoic" speaker performance. But when used in a room, I find the DEQX "single point in space" tuning is too restrictive, so I then associate the DEQ to correct for the average hemispherical in-room response.
Also, the 64 slot memory function on the DEQ makes it easy to incorporate what i politely call CRC or "commercial recording compensation" with varying degrees of corrections. It's almost mandatory if you like rock and pop from the 70's and 80's (e.g. Allman Bros 1st album is almost unlistenable without some major re-eq compensation - too bad 'cause it's smokin good music!) Press memory button on the deq, select which CRC you want, and.... voila! it becomes listenable and.... very , very enjoyable!

In practice, like you, I have found it necessary to adopt the B&K listening curve... I'm of the opinion that this is due to the way most music is recorded, when I record using a near binaural set-up with a modded Jecklin type disc and calibration mics, the "flat" setting generated by the deqx seems better.

Another comment I might make about the active vs passive debate is that when we are going "active" we have very little "high def, high transparency" equipment to choose from. I often use a Behringer DCX2496 for my clients systems, but it needs some serious modding to sound transparent. And the DEQX has pretty good built-in dacs, but even so it can sound much better with outboard dacs such as the Antelope Zodiac Gold (to name just one I've tried and really liked)

IMO, if we as DIYers and semi-pros (or even pro-pros) had more transparent active crossovers with more options and flexibility, it would be no contest in favor of active.
As it is, when I listen to my FAST type open baffle full-range, driven with a series crossover (yes MiiB, I hear you nodding your head!), and using a single amp driven by a modded DEQ2496, the transparency of this system gives any top end system (including my own) some very serious competition.

I would love to see stuff like the Behringer dcx or Mini-DSP with truly transparent dacs or digital outs at similar prices to the dcx2496... it would make integration with active crossovers much more palatable to those who don't want to have to mod their gear just to get it good enough for rock'n roll.

All of which goes to say that IMO we need to develop some much more transparent active crossover/eq systems before we can convincingly demonstrate how much better active can be. As it stands, unless you're willing to spend big bucks on a deqx with digital outs AND THEN ADD two high quality external dacs, it's pretty hard to get top notch transparency.

So I guess I'm siding with Pano and MiiB on this argument... UNLESS we're using the deq + DEQX + really good external dacs.
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Last edited by Jack Caldwell; 23rd October 2012 at 07:57 PM.
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Old 23rd October 2012, 10:44 PM   #446
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Old 23rd October 2012, 10:48 PM   #447
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I like Audyssey. Currently it satisfies all my needs for home listenings and movie watchings.
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Old 23rd October 2012, 11:14 PM   #448
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Holy crap! This thread goes on and on and on.........

No one has ever made any conclusive statement as to how passive / one amp is better than active multi-amp.

Because it is NOT TRUE.

Grow up. Get over it. Technology is not on your side.

For each infinitesimal arrangement that works its bizarre magic in the passive domain, there are an infinite number of ways to obliterate that into complete insignificance in the active domain.

Like it has been said before. The only argument to be made for passive / single amp is that almost all of the commercially available stuff is made to match this market.

THAT'S IT. That is all you have going for you!

Any system that is design to be active / multi amp from the ground up has the potential to BLOW AWAY a single amp passive system.

End of story.

James.
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Old 23rd October 2012, 11:16 PM   #449
SY is offline SY  United States
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No one has ever made any conclusive statement as to how passive / one amp is better than active multi-amp.
Probably because it isn't. It's just a different way to hit a target which may or may not be more convenient to do in a given situation. I really don't understand the absolutist position.
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Old 23rd October 2012, 11:21 PM   #450
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No one has ever made any conclusive statement as to how passive / one amp is better than active multi-amp.
I have seen quite a few -- you have just ignored them because a/ they aren't in your world view or b/ you did not give enuff thot or have enuff understanding to get them. Since which is best is context sensitive there will never be a conclusive one is better than the other.

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