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Old 21st October 2012, 01:33 PM   #301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MiiB View Post
Robert do you really believe what you just wrote...
I experience this everyday - a fact from my point of view anyway.
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Old 21st October 2012, 01:40 PM   #302
tinitus is offline tinitus  Europe
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Originally Posted by MiiB View Post
OK I stop.. can't get into stupid arguments. I just stating my experience and also some of the clearly obvious reasons. seems like lots of religion in the, and that debate is not for me..
personal expeiences are very good, and worth gold
just don't claim they are facts overruling anyone elses
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Old 21st October 2012, 01:41 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by MiiB View Post
Remlab.

The tweeter we use is a planar magnetic. It has quite low distortion, but more important it's very very light, so it stores no kinetic energy under movement, and thus has no resonance, in this respect it's more than 30 times better than any conventional design. where you have mass/spring issues to deal with.

Reason I react to this active VS passive debate is the simple fact that drivers change under amplitude and if drivers are treated separately (as in active) they will change individually with different SPL making the picture nervous and fragile. With a passive (current shunt type x-over) these dynamic changes are reflected into the system as a whole thus maintaining the integrity of the system and keeping the composure of the (sound) picture stable.

One very important parameter the alters under amplitude is inductance..that differs with position of the VC. and Back EMF that is different for different amplitudes. those changes need to be reflected into the other drivers of the system, to maintain the systems composure.
Back EMf makes amplifiers sound different, and if this difference only happen in the base and is not reflected into the mids and highs the system becomes detached.

Active is for high efficiency not for high-fidelity.
Tweeter still obeys laws of physics; it still has mass and motion, and a system for returning it to rest position. As such it does store energy, does have resonance (be it very low), and in large signal domain exhibits other limitations of other electromechanical devices.

Why and how does the back EMF of one driver compose the behavior of another driver? What can a midrange or woofer tell you perfect tweeter to do better? Behave poorly so as not to make the other driver's poor performance stick out?

Amplifiers don't sound like anything, drivers make sound.

High fidelity is the reason that active monitors have become standard in professional studios around the world.

If a human can hear a difference between two systems, these differences can be measured and quantified.

You subjective impressions of speaker behavior is detached from reality.

Regards,

Andrew
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Old 21st October 2012, 02:02 PM   #304
MiiB is offline MiiB  Denmark
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I take it passive for the tweeter midrange and active for the base section...??

That is a feasible path, since our ears are less sensitive to the dynamic discontinuities in This region.. (though active is still difficult here)

I don't believe in fashion, but I do believe in challenging the performance barriers. An extraordinary system will always have a market.

Engineering... Problem is what is the target... linearity, transient response...coherence, mechanical noise..You simply can't target all these issues actively. You aim for one or two and loose the rest.
To me there is a true correlation to what we perceive as sounding natural to the coherence of the speaker system. And by full active this is exactly what you loose. the coherence as each driver lives it's own life separated from the rest
This big room breathing, this sense of being there is forever lost. Instead you get Sound I don't care one second for sound. I want the emotion and the sense of live.

Well Maybe it just me that can't make it work...
Glad I have a little grasp of passive...
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Old 21st October 2012, 02:14 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by Barleywater View Post
Tweeter still obeys laws of physics; it still has mass and motion, and a system for returning it to rest position. As such it does store energy, does have resonance (be it very low), and in large signal domain exhibits other limitations of other electromechanical devices.

Why and how does the back EMF of one driver compose the behavior of another driver? What can a midrange or woofer tell you perfect tweeter to do better? Behave poorly so as not to make the other driver's poor performance stick out?

Amplifiers don't sound like anything, drivers make sound.

High fidelity is the reason that active monitors have become standard in professional studios around the world.

If a human can hear a difference between two systems, these differences can be measured and quantified.

You subjective impressions of speaker behavior is detached from reality.

Regards,

Andrew
I'll second that.

As I said before there is a reason why practically the only people who get to compare the live performance with what comes out of the speakers choose active ones.

I have yet to come across any passive 'audiophile' speakers which come close to some of the active ones I mentioned earlier in terms of accuracy.
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Old 21st October 2012, 02:25 PM   #306
MiiB is offline MiiB  Denmark
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I just put my observations here...take it for what it is... I'm done.

Last edited by MiiB; 21st October 2012 at 02:27 PM.
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Old 21st October 2012, 02:47 PM   #307
tinitus is offline tinitus  Europe
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Originally Posted by MiiB View Post
To me there is a true correlation to what we perceive as sounding natural to the coherence of the speaker system. And by full active this is exactly what you loose. the coherence as each driver lives it's own life separated from the rest
not too late to learn how it works
it can be done, absolutely 100%
but yeah, passive can do it too
so the big question is, why bother

active doing what you ask will have to involve all amplification
so already there many 'customers' will be lost
and its probably the same with DIY
people like some freedom, and fun
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Old 21st October 2012, 02:56 PM   #308
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I find my active 4ways allow me more freedom as I can change any of the four stereo amps at any time if I feel like it and since each speaker consists of two separate boxes I could change drivers at a whim too without having to necessarily design a completely new crossover regardless of impedances or sensitivities. I'd just possibly have to make up new frequency plug-in cards.
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Old 21st October 2012, 04:52 PM   #309
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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Yes Charles, I think that's a very good reason to use active. I've done it myself.
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Old 21st October 2012, 05:01 PM   #310
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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Originally Posted by James Lehman View Post
There are things you can do with active crossovers and multiple amps that you simply cannot do with a single amp and a passive multi-way crossover.
Yeah, probably. Or at least not do easily. (see above)

Quote:
You have total buffering and isolation between the stages.
OK, so what?

Quote:
If there was a total and finite winning argument for single power amp and passive crossover then active multi-amp would not be used in professional audio applications.
I don't follow your logic. Pro audio and living room Hi-Fi are not the same thing. Horses for courses. SQ is important in pro audio, but usually takes a back seat to SPL and ruggedness. Active crossovers are great for that in pro use. For work, I use all powered speakers (Meyer Sound, JBL, QSC) and love them. Pro audio has to work, or you don't get paid- bottom line. All other considerations come after that. For high power, high SPL use, actives are best - no doubt.

I have seen passive crossovers used in pro audio, even in current production. I've also seen passive crossovers catch fire during a concert. Amusing, but not really desirable.
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